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565 lines
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<meta name="generator" content=
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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 02 Dec
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2009</title>
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<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
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"48" width="72" /></a></p>
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
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<h2>02 Dec 2009</h2>
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<p><a href=
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'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0003.html'>
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Agenda</a></p>
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<p>See also: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
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<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
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<div class="intro">
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<dl>
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<dt>Present</dt>
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<dd>Raphael, Silvia, Yves, Philip_(irc), Michael</dd>
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<dt>Regrets</dt>
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<dd>Erik, Davy, Jack</dd>
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<dt>Chair</dt>
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<dd>Raphael</dd>
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<dt>Scribe</dt>
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<dd>Yves</dd>
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</dl>
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</div>
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<h2>Contents</h2>
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<ul>
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<li>
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<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
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<ol>
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<li><a href="#item01">Specification</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item02">Specific (cont.) - 2
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roundtrips</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item03">Rework of the section 5</a></li>
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</ol>
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</li>
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<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
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</ul>
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<hr />
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<div class="meeting">
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<p class='phone'> </p>
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<p class='phone'> </p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 02 December
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2009</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> Scribe: Yves</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Minutes from last
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week: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> +1 for
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accepting</p>
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<p class='phone'>no objection => accepted</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
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<h3 id="item01">Specification</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTION-112?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-112 --
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Raphaël Troncy to propose a digest of Conrad and current's
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proposal regarding the use of existing and custom headers for
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the communication UA server -- due 2009-09-25 -- OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/112">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/112</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>We have the one round trip version, and the
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two round trips versions</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> close
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ACTION-112</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-112 Propose
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a digest of Conrad and current's proposal regarding the use of
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existing and custom headers for the communication UA server
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closed</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> what make you think that
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the one-round trip version can't be cached?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> implementation issue
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only, current implementation can't without knowing the unit</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> right, but implementation
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can't exist before the spec is ready :)</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we can then document
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expectation on client servers and proxies (wrt
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support/implementation)</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> that would do it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Silvia: there is a
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optimal solution and then divergent cases ... this is how
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section 3 is written</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yves: changing the
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UA is not easy</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> changing servers and
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clients is easy, proxies are not easy to update</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> By proxy you mean caches,
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proxies will work perfectly well</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I mean caching
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proxies indeed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> request to speak
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(write)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Raphael: indeed my
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asumption is that we have a UA conformant to the media fragment
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spec (parse), a server like Davy's one that support MF URI and
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that's it</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> just to mention that I am
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not against the two round trip approach :)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... i.e. no caches
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have been modified</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Raphael: do you
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agree that the 2 round-trips approach allow to cache fragments
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without changing cache implementation ?</p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0008.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0008.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>GET /2008/WebVideo/Fragments/media/fragf2f.mp4
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HTTP/1.1</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Host:</cite> www.w3.org</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Accept:</cite> video/*</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Fragment:</cite> time:npt=12-21</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yves: time ranges
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are cacheable but need implementation. 2 rounds trip is a hack
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to allow current proxies to cache</p>
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<p class='phone'>HTTP 200 OK</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Content-Length:</cite> 3571437</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Content-Fragment:</cite>
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time:npt=12-21</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Vary:</cite> Fragment</p>
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<p class='phone'>we should add Content-Location:
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/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/media/fragf2f.mp4?t=12-21</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yves: in Conrad's
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proposal, case 1.2.b, we need to add a Content-Location header
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in the response</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> is there a speaker
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queue?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> yes, Philip</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yves: my concern is
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that in the case of Conrad's proposal, if you have 2 request,
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the second one will flush the cache of the first one</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I would like to note
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that the NPT syntax in the HTTP headers examples are
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inconsistent. Would it not be best to define a normalized form?
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The UA would have to pick a formatting anyway unless it just
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copies it verbatim (in which case it doesn't actually know
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which offset it is requesting or if it's valid syntax).</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Philip, can you
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point us to this inconsistency ?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I don't see it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> "time:npt
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11.85-21.16/36" vs "time:npt=12-21"</p>
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<p class='phone'>ah it's the range reply syntax</p>
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<p class='phone'>which is starting time -end time / total
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time</p>
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<p class='phone'>you have the same asymetry in byte ranges</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> in either case, NPT
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should be normalized, so that it isn't sometimes 0:00:12,
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sometimes 12 and sometimes 12s</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Philip: we follow
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the same pattern that the bytes range request ... with a
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dissimetry between request and response</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> it is not
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0:00:12</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> where did you see
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this Philip ?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> raphael: some more
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zeroes?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> foolip: the syntax
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is given in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-syntax">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-syntax</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I thought I have
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normallized the npt syntax</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> foolip: if something
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does not conform to that syntax, it is a typo</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Section 5 contains
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indeed typos</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> so which format is
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normalized?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think section 5
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still needs a general work-over</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> the ABNF allows any
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kind of variation</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> not any, but many
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variations of the same time</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> ah, yes, we decided
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to give the user the freedom to specify relatively freely, but
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the syntax on the wire is fixed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> that's good, where
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is it defined?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> not yet in the spec
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- needs to go into section 5</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> ok, so we are
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already in agreement that this is neeed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> needed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> good</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yup, indeed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I suggest
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normalizing to seconds without s, but that's just me</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> anything is fine</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> as long as there can
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only be one possible string output for each input (makes
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writing conformance test suites lot easier too)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yes, indeed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> OK, philip, I try
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to solve your problem ...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> thanks</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> what do you would
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like to be changed in the spec?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I'm not sure I
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understand it :-(</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> 1) The Media
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Fragment URI syntax ? 2) The HTTP request header syntax ? 3)
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The HTTP response header ?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> it should say that
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when sending header X, the format MUST be Y, with Y
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unambiguously defined</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... for example in
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the case of npt</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> 2 and 3</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> 1) is the parsing
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end, which we'll get to later I think</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> this should be a
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conformance requirement of both UAs and servers</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> OK Philip, now I
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understand, indeed, we haven't specified yet the syntax for 2)
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and 3)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> The only things we
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have: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> OK, then it's just a
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matter of time, I shall not worry any more :)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... or worry
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later</p>
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<p class='phone'>Silvia, we need some ABNF there as well</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> to summarize, lax URI
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syntax, strict header</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> part of the syntax
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was started in <a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0099.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0099.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> but needs to go into
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ABNF</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Silvia, yes, it is
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even better summarized in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08#section-5.4.2">
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http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08#section-5.4.2</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>other-ranges-specifier = other-range-unit "="
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other-range-set</p>
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<p class='phone'>other-range-set = 1*CHAR</p>
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<p class='phone'>other-range-unit = token</p><a name="action01"
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id="action01"></a>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
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<strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to come up with ABNF for header
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syntax [recorded in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-123
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- Come up with ABNF for header syntax [on Yves Lafon - due
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2009-12-09].</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> ABNF syntax without
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any use of " / " to that.</p>
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<h3 id="item02">Specific (cont.) - 2 roundtrips</h3>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> on the two round trip I
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have some reservation with the first 200 OK reply</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yves: In the case
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of 2.1, first roundtrip response should be a 307 instead of
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200</p>
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<p class='phone'>may be better to have a 307 and redirect to
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itself with the right headers</p>
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<p class='phone'>will followup by email</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we need to update
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section 5</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> happy to work on it</p>
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<h3 id="item03">Rework of the section 5</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> See: <a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> what you summarized is in
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sync with what I had in mind, writing this will clarify
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things<br />
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... not clear that we need the Fragment: header, but don't
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remember what Conrad wanted it for<br />
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... but good that the email thread restarted</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I proposed a
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restructuration plan for section 5</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Silvia, do you want to
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work on specific sections? or all of them?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> better if it is
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consistent</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
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<strong>ACTION:</strong> Silvia to rework section 5 according
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to Raphael's restructuration plan <a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html</a>
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due 2009-12-15 [recorded in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-124
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- Rework section 5 according to Raphael's restructuration plan
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<a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html</a>
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due 2009-12-15 [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-12-09].</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> where in section 5
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will the processing requirements (parsing) go? part of MF
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resolution?</p>
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<p class='phone'>depends on the author :)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think it should be
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section 5.5 ABNF for HTTPrequest & response
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headers</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
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<strong>ACTION:</strong> Michael to revisit his ednote in
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section 5 [recorded in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-125
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- Revisit his ednote in section 5 [on Michael Hausenblas - due
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2009-12-09].</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I agree that most
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parts can be given as ABNF, but not all of it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I can elaborate if
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it's not clear why.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> why not?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yes please Philip,
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I suggest we wait for Silvia's input and then complain what is
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not sufficiently specified</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> on the test cases, lots
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of action. postpone?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> sorry, difficult to
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guess who's talking over IRC</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> => postponed</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTION-119?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-119 -- Yves
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Lafon to request admins to set up a cvs notifications mailing
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list and notifications -- due 2009-10-14 -- OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/119">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/119</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> oops, will work on this</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> foolip, can you
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clarify your opinion on ABNF via email?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> silvia: to you or
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the list?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> the list</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> will do</p>
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<p class='phone'>ADJOURNED</p>
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<p class='phone'>tracker, end telcon</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Raphael: I will
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make sure we follow-up the current thread of dicussion so we
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can converge rapidly between Conrad's and current's
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proposal</p>
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<p class='phone'>trackbot, end telcon</p>
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</div>
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<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
|
|
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
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<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Michael to
|
|
revisit his ednote in section 5 [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
|
|
|
|
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Silvia to rework
|
|
section 5 according to Raphael's restructuration plan <a href=
|
|
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html">
|
|
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html</a>
|
|
due 2009-12-15 [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
|
|
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|
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to come up
|
|
with ABNF for header syntax [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
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|
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<br />
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[End of minutes]<br />
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<hr />
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<address>
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
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scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
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$Date: 2009/12/02 11:00:15 $
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</address>
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</body>
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</html>
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