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<title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 30 Sep
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<h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>30 Sep 2009</h2>
<p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc">IRC
log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>danbri, DKA, jsalvachua, rreck, tpa,mischat,hajons
FabGandon, Carine, petef, peter st. audre, hhalpin, MacTed,
bblfish, melvster, rreck</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>hhalpin</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>mischat</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">General Organization</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">Invited Guest Invitations</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">user stories</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">Peter St. Andre of XMPP</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>
<p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 30 September
2009</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; Hi guys, I'm sorry I'm
going to have to miss this one, there seems to be no signal at
all where I'm at today.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; no problem tpa</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; did you check in
with henry story yet?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; hhalpin: we're supposed
to do it sometime this week</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; hhalpin: we should also
talk at some point, off-weekly call and confer about the use
cases and the resulting document we're aiming for?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; I guess we'll figure
that out at a more convenient time, I'll be emailing you.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; hhalpin: i think
you got the wrong phone handle</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; ill redail in</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; i think i was
??P13</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; i hung up and it
said -hhalpin</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; hi</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>
<p class='phone'>hello all</p>
<h3 id="item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; zakim agenda+
General Organization</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; zakim agenda+
Invited Guest - Peter St. Andre on XMPP</p>
<p class='phone'>i can scribe</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribe: mischat</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ROPOSED: to approve
SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus
adding rreck</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to
approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record
plus adding rreck</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: to
approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record
plus adding rreck</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to meet
again Wed. October 7th</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 meet again</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Next Wed is Evan
from OpenMicroblogging.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Also requested we
move things 2 hours back if possible.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='phone'>evan request for 2 hours back</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (back meaning
forward :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; later</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; into the future</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Moving meeting to
13:00UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; back to the future
:)</p>
<p class='phone'>moving meeting to 13:00 UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; Already 13:00 UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i support moving
it</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; It's already 13:00
UTC.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; move to 15:00 UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Moving meeting to
15:00UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; everyone is confused
around timezones anyhow, this time of year</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; If we don't get any
objetions</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 move meeting time
to 15:00UTC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; then move next
meeting to 15:00UTC.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I'm happy with
15:00 UTC for next week (and indeed, generally).</p>
<p class='phone'>harry to ask the list this week, if no
objections we move to 15:00 UTC</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; no</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: Unless
objections from list, telecons moved to 15:00 UTC from now
on.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; are we expecting
stpeter now?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; problem</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ok</p>
<h3 id="item02">General Organization</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; bblfish, is that
"no. problem." or "no problem."</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Technical
Plenary?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Whose going to
technical plenary?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; no problem. or
+1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; going</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; I should be
going</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i can't make it</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; not me</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; not me</p>
<p class='phone'>not me</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; not me</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; not me ;(</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; not me</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; don't know yet</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (i did talk to Kevin
Marks about possibility of him talking; passed that on to
harry/ian)</p>
<p class='phone'>henry, fabien are going</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; you should register
asap, the calendar is correct now.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I know you DKA</p>
<p class='phone'>if people want to go they should register
asap</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; and then's this
open social web day.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Is anyone going to
Internet Identity Workshop?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; not going to
IIW</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; probably</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Which is right
afterwards...</p>
<p class='phone'>which is right after the technical plenary</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; nope</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ok just checking
in...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; not me</p>
<p class='phone'>registration fees are going up for the IIW</p>
<p class='phone'>so if you want to go then you should get on it
asap</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> DKA to
summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread
knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p><a name="action02"
id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> Mischa to
describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how
they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item03">Invited Guest Invitations</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
Opera/Widgets/OpenSocial?</p>
<p class='phone'>i will get mine done soon, I have been
recovering from submitting thesis this last week</p>
<p class='phone'>danbri is a technically a bad person :)</p>
<p class='phone'>has anyone looked at the activity streams work
?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/">http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; I have had a brief
look</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; me too</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; Happy to look deeper
and perhaps write a summary for the wiki</p>
<p class='phone'>hasn't danbri looked at it in the notube work
?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; opensocial and
activity streams are looking to align</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I think it's
definitely worth summarziing for the wiki and yes it is
aligning to opensocial.</p>
<p class='phone'>harry thinks it would be good for some to host
a session on the activity streams work</p><a name="action03"
id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Harry to invite Ben Laurie from
OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-92
- Invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C
Social Web talk [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-10-07].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; Do we have Chris
Messina on the invite list already?</p>
<p class='phone'>who spoke ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; petef</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; +1 for having it in
the final report at least, and seems good to invite them to
present</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> petef to look into activitystreams
invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
find user - petef</p>
<p class='phone'>+1 to having on the final report</p><a name=
"action05" id="action05"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> pferne to look into activitystreams
invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-93
- Look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [on
Peter Ferne - due 2009-10-07].</p><a name="action06" id=
"action06"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> cperey to
book global lockbox as an invited speaker [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>
<p class='phone'>i will get the mail out to the BBC persian
people</p>
<p class='phone'>please do :)</p><a name="action07" id=
"action07"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> mischat to invite BBC Persia people to
talk about their use of social media [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
find user - mischat</p><a name="action08" id="action08"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> mtuffield to invite BBC Persia people
to talk about their use of social media [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
find user - mtuffield</p>
<p class='phone'>mtiffiel</p>
<p class='phone'>spelt wrong</p>
<p class='phone'>:)</p>
<p class='phone'>swh's fault</p><a name="action09" id=
"action09"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people
to talk about their use of social media [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-94
- Invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social
media [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07].</p>
<h3 id="item04">user stories</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Quick note
Christine on Open Social Web day?</p>
<p class='phone'>re user stories, oshani is away today</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; oof <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests">
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests</a>
takes a while to load</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; cool!</p>
<p class='phone'>Christine has talked to Dan, re : OPen Social
Web day. Dan to add to the wiki, and will be setting up an
eventbrite for the event</p>
<p class='phone'>a conference call is scheduled for this coming
friday</p>
<p class='phone'>there is a need for some more marketing to
happen</p>
<p class='phone'>henry, just an email confirmation that the
auditorium has been booked along with</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; good news!</p>
<p class='phone'>projectors, wifi, and stuff</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>
<p class='phone'>harry had a question about the user stories,
perhaps they are too complicated</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; it would nice to
get user story doc done between TPAC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; sorry before
TPAC!</p>
<p class='phone'>christine has taken a high level ID, so that
the use cases can be clustered</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; is this work
online?</p>
<p class='phone'>high level concepts to classify the user
stories</p>
<p class='phone'>for organisational purposes</p>
<p class='phone'>christine to check if she can get the document
she was been working on online</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; please do</p>
<p class='phone'>so christine will aim to share the structure
she has built with the groups</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Goal, Summary,
Actors, Preconditions, Trigger, Basic Course of Events,
Alternative Paths, postconditons, business rules and then
metadata about author/date.</p>
<p class='phone'>at the moment we have goals, actions,
triggers, ...</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks harry</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; remove some
ofit.</p>
<p class='phone'>harry would like to remove of it</p>
<p class='phone'>harry thinks it is a bit too complicated at
the moment</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 summary</p>
<p class='phone'>harry would like to get some summaries and
pre-conditions up</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; -1 business rules</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; Just as interest,
here is a very developed set of user stories for the future of
identity <a href=
"http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/">http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/</a>
with real stories. Clearly we don't need to go that far. But it
is an interesting example</p>
<p class='phone'>simplify the use stories to 3 parts</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; +1 for
simplification</p>
<p class='phone'>summary, pre-conditions, post-conditions ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think actors is
self evident possibly</p>
<p class='phone'>can you repeat that hhalpin ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; pre-condition/basic
course of events/goal accomplished (maybe alternative
paths)?</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So just have 3
categories for every use-case.</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; seems ok</p>
<p class='phone'>i am happy to go through and summarise if need
be</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ok. I am in the
same offices as tim right now</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> i didn't get any of
that</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; breaking up</p>
<p class='phone'>you were breaking up</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; YEs, the link is
here <a href=
"http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/">http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; looks like a
fashion magazine</p>
<h3 id="item05">Peter St. Andre of XMPP</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> saw this at the social
web camp.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; but it's called
"Identity Revolution - Multi Disclipinary Perspectives"</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; very developed user
stories on identity with very in depth characters</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp, and how it can be integrated from the
social web</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Peter go for
it!</p>
<p class='phone'>and how it will fit in with the w3c and the
wider community</p>
<p class='phone'>people which are interested in microblogging,
buddy cloud</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; the relationship
with OMB would be interesting.</p>
<p class='phone'>trying to figure out what problems the SWXG
are trying to solve</p>
<p class='phone'>and how the XMPP community can help</p>
<p class='phone'>the SWXG has noticed that the W3C has ignored
the social web tech</p>
<p class='phone'>and the group wants to write an introductory
report on the landscape of technologies in the social web</p>
<p class='phone'>for example the widgets work, and the open
social work, and how this is pushing towards the notion of a
decentralised social network</p>
<p class='phone'>so the group would like to figure how the W3C
can help influence future development on the social Web</p>
<p class='phone'>and the group is interested in how the
technologies can be built upon, technologies like openid,
oauth, xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; (sorry, should have
went through them one at a time!)</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp grew out of instance messaging</p>
<p class='phone'>instant</p>
<p class='phone'>the initial idea was to build ontop of XML,
taking the ideas of Jabber and building on XML to build a
stream</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 1. Final Report on
over-arching technologies 2. Adoption of social web
technologies by W3C internally 3. How the W3C should evolve to
interact with the wider social web commuity</p>
<p class='phone'>the idea was to have a peer-2-peer based
method of shifting xml between points on the web</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so it started out
very general purpose</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; that's
interesting</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp was designed be a generalised transport
mechanism</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; see <a href=
"http://metajack.im/2008/11/21/chesspark_design_details_part_1_why_xmpp/">
http://metajack.im/2008/11/21/chesspark_design_details_part_1_why_xmpp/</a></p>
<p class='phone'>rpc technology, some gaming, file sharing,
file sharing, google wave</p>
<p class='phone'>are all built on top of xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; and <a href=
"http://metajack.im/2009/03/12/awesome-demo-of-real-time-xmpp-powered-app/">
http://metajack.im/2009/03/12/awesome-demo-of-real-time-xmpp-powered-app/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; re google talk see
<a href=
"http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html">
http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>google talk using xmpp for their signalling
channel to set up voice and video calls</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (google talk basic
text messages are themselves xmpp)</p>
<p class='phone'>there is a standards body</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; re social, ... see
<a href=
"http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/social">http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/social</a></p>
<p class='phone'>pidgin is implementing an open-source xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; how oauth and
openid fit in with XMPP is quite interesting.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; oauth - <a href=
"http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>plans are afoot to use oauth and xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; fireeagle and xmpp
see <a href=
"http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/xmpp_faq">http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/xmpp_faq</a></p>
<p class='phone'>this is used in fireeagle</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (also not mentioned
but hey... rdf query over xmpp - <a href=
"http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html">http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html</a>
)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I thought it
switched from polling to pushing...</p>
<p class='phone'>polling is a problem on services, and xmpp
fixes this by pushing</p>
<p class='phone'>this technology is becoming popular for real
time search</p>
<p class='phone'>this can save service providers on hardware
wear and tear</p>
<p class='phone'>apple is doing some experiments with push for
their iphone tech</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Is pubsub</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; (I think)</p>
<p class='phone'>there is work in the xmpp community on the
transport tech side, but there isn't much movement in the
development of social software</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>stpeter</cite>&gt; hhalpin: that is
correct</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Good overview</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; go for danbri!</p>
<p class='phone'>perhaps the w3c would be a place where the
xmpp could integrate with social web people</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; q re MUC (multi user
chat)</p>
<p class='phone'>danbri question : lots of people are stuck in
the IRC world, and IM chats are advancing faster than multi
user chat</p>
<p class='phone'>so there is xmpp work in an online chat room
chess game? and this builds upon a multi user chat room</p>
<p class='phone'>MUC could be used for real-time modeling of a
XML sequence, could be used to collaboratively write
documents</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp has some strong points ;</p>
<p class='phone'>XML, a good thing, we fixed some security
issues which IRC had</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; one question would
be if XMPP should at some point replace IRC as a communication
point for W3C.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; hmmm... create a
MUC, invite validator@xmpp.w3.org and start working on XHTML
snippets...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; yes, this might be
an effective way of working although the W3C has a lot of
infrastructure invested in IRC.</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp has a cert based authentication</p>
<p class='phone'>and doesn't reveal your IP address as in
IRC</p>
<p class='phone'>there is ongoing work to distribute rooms over
a network so that if a peer goes down</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp community haven't tried to get rid off
IRC, or other tech</p>
<p class='phone'>collaborative point of view, you can send
structure data, you could have forms pop up for voting</p>
<p class='phone'>dod ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; department of
defence mischat</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp is the only approved chat mechanism for
the dod</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; part of the usa
government</p>
<p class='phone'>IRC had too many security issues, and the dod
are moving to use XMPP group chat</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; native prescence
+1</p>
<p class='phone'>and we have a link to the chess game ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.chesspark.com/">http://www.chesspark.com/</a></p>
<p class='phone'>XMPP has support for native presence
information, and for network availability</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; +q</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; audience
segregation for presence?</p>
<p class='phone'>presence information is not on IRC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; pidgin handles
both irc and xmpp -- im using it now ...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Well, I'm
currently on Pidgin which does both IRC and XMPP chats.</p>
<p class='phone'>so when the distributed room problem gets
solved in xmpp then it may be a viable replacement for IRC</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>stpeter</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/distributedmuc.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/distributedmuc.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>i too use pidgin</p>
<p class='phone'>there is lot of ongoing work on the xmpp front
to build towards the distributed muc</p>
<p class='phone'>lots of open source implementations</p>
<p class='phone'>there are projects which are working on
clustering and high availability for high volumes of users</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; prosody.im</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks</p>
<p class='phone'>the prosody project is having a go at the
distributedmuc</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; hajons?</p>
<p class='phone'>hajons, now that xmpp is standardised, do you
think that big companies like google will not implement the
standard?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; hajons asked about
standards now that XMPP is being used in Google Wave etc.</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp which used to be called jabber, came
about 10 years ago, distributed comms model, and the exchange
of XML turned it into XMPP</p>
<p class='phone'>rfc came about in 2004</p>
<p class='phone'>since the work was put into the rfc, people
can now write their own implementations</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; who would have ever
thought standards could promote interoperability?</p>
<p class='phone'>google talk extended the spec for the video
signalling</p>
<p class='phone'>jingle work was very similar to google
talk</p>
<p class='phone'>and the jingle tech is now in the xmpp specs,
and google are now looking to harmonise the open-source
implementations of jingle with their google talk</p>
<p class='phone'>still early days in google wave. google wave
are trying to develop the technology in the open, which was
different to the google talk. google talk was implemented and
then it was released in the wild</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Do people mind
extending the call 15-20 minutes to deal with questions?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 extend, but i may
have to drop</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp is a good community of people, and they
are standardisation friendly</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1 extend</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; +q</p>
<p class='phone'>harry question : are there plans for the xmpp
auth to be integrated with openid</p>
<p class='phone'>and second question, will xmpp integrate with
the TLS?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ah, that clears
things up a bit from the outside.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (interesting, i was
wondering whether foaf:jabberID needed updating)</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp has always used ssl for encryption</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; starTLS to upgrade
a port to encryption - but that's per-hop not end-to-end (i.e.
OTR?)</p>
<p class='phone'>since 2004, there has been a start_tls
command, which is a per hop encrypted</p>
<p class='phone'>encryption</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; very cool: start
with TLS and upgrade to encrypted when you want encryption.
Should use this for foaf+ssl :-)</p>
<p class='phone'>it is possible that there is clear-text on the
server</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; bblfish,
HTTP/HTTPS doesn't allow upgrades to encrypted connections on
the same port.</p>
<p class='phone'>as the moment there is no end-to-end
encryption</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; what's the issues
with OTR?</p>
<p class='phone'>they have looked at pptp</p>
<p class='phone'>and have looked smime</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so just go
end-to-end TLS</p>
<p class='phone'>but people dont have certs, so they have
looked a tls, and how it can be reworked to do end-end
encryption</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OTR is a bit of a
hack with weird signalling...can only encrypt plain text
message.</p>
<p class='phone'>in OTR you can only encrypt the plain text
messages</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Doesn't encrypt the
rest of the XML</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; tinkster: I thought
that is what peter said</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ah, that makes a
lot of sense</p>
<p class='phone'>for example you can only encrypt the message
body, e.g. "Hello World"</p>
<p class='phone'>not the whole XML message</p>
<p class='phone'>OTR does not give end-to-end security</p>
<p class='phone'>there are issues with certs</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; encrypted group
chat end-to-end?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; very hard
problem.</p>
<p class='phone'>for doing end-to-end group is a hard
problem</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; the default w3c
chat is not encrypted</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so it's still in
the scope but in the future</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; room itself with
certifcate?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://silcnet.org/">http://silcnet.org/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; GPG allows
messages to be encrypted to multiple users.</p>
<p class='phone'>first to work on end-to-end encryption, and
then there will be work on the group chat encryption</p>
<p class='phone'>question petef. Google Waves server - server
federation is xmpp, will anymore of it be based on xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt;
multiuser_encypted_message = concat( encrypt(plaintext_message,
random_key), encrypt(random_key, recip1_key),
encrypt(random_key, recip2_key), encrypt(random_key,
recip3_key), ...)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; "special google
magic" :-)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; protobuf</p>
<p class='phone'>discussion to have xmpp version of the client
- server xmpp is not high on google's todo list</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/">http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/</a></p>
<p class='phone'>the wave server is no based on xmpp</p>
<p class='phone'>not for client-server</p>
<p class='phone'>but they use it for server - server comms</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp does federation well very, xmpp does it
server-server encrypted comms well</p>
<p class='phone'>quite a few xmpp mobile clients</p>
<p class='phone'>nokia are doing work on xmpp (hajons are there
any links?)</p>
<p class='phone'>there are questions to how effecient xmpp is,
due to long lived tcp connection</p>
<p class='phone'>90% of traffic in an IM environment</p>
<p class='phone'>is presense</p>
<p class='phone'>presence</p>
<p class='phone'>not chat</p>
<p class='phone'>there are ways to manage presence information
in xmpp, so that you dont have to receive presence data
continuously</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://betalabs.nokia.com/betas/view/nokia-chat">http://betalabs.nokia.com/betas/view/nokia-chat</a></p>
<p class='phone'>there is work underway todo diff's on the
information sent across to to clients</p>
<p class='phone'>ovi.com</p>
<p class='phone'><a href="http://ovi.com">http://ovi.com</a>
(nokia system for mobile stuff)</p>
<p class='phone'>thank hajons</p>
<p class='phone'>thans</p>
<p class='phone'>buddlyclowd etc</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; gtg, thanks
peter.</p>
<p class='phone'>google talk for andriod apparently doesn't use
xmpp</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://buddycloud.com">http://buddycloud.com</a></p>
<p class='phone'>so there was a google talk service which was a
developer back channel on andriod, which is built ontop of
google talk, which is xmpp.</p>
<p class='phone'>remote scripting opens up security holes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; basically, Google
Android doesn't actually do XMPP despite the fact that's its
heavily requested</p>
<p class='phone'>henry is asking about client side
authenication based on certs (foaf+ssl)</p>
<p class='phone'>xmpp is uses SASL external (dont know what the
tech is), which enables xmpp to use client based certs</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; x509 certificates
is the key issue as most people don't have them - although
everyone does have a social networking page :)</p>
<p class='phone'>this is used by the army, because they all
have certs, allowing for X.509 certs</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks tinkster :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; sounds like a
pretty good idea!</p>
<p class='phone'>the aim is to have your client create a cert,
which it could be used to do end-to-end encryption</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; (rather than
having pidgin storing all our passwords cleartext...)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>pchampin:</cite> pidgin is very naughty
like that</p>
<p class='phone'>in foaf+ssl, your cert is assigned to a URI,
which is resolvable</p>
<p class='phone'>foaf+ssl allows for a decentralised social
network</p>
<p class='phone'>with danbri's jqbus now</p>
<p class='phone'>maybe</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html">http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0154.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0154.html</a>
has vcard, foaf etc stuff</p>
<p class='phone'>harry question : what could do the W3C do in
this community to help take the xmpp work forward ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; the answer can be
done over e-mail :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I would assume
membership is a huge barrier</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; have to go now;
thanks a lot to Peter</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>stpeter</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; coordination is
better at group level</p>
<p class='phone'>peter said that there is potential for
collaboration between xmpp and the SWXG</p>
<p class='phone'>sorry</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/charter">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/charter</a>
("The chairs will strive to make sure that W3C membership is
not a problem for independent, student and low-wage members,
while noting that employees of larger companies are typically
expected by W3C to encourage their employer to join W3C.")</p>
<p class='phone'>oauth to become a standard soon</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; via IETF and
cultural question</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; danbri, you wanted to
ask about vcard and to</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; probably the w3c's
best role is to verify things that come out of running code and
communities.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; mischa?</p>
<p class='phone'>sorry, i keep being called by people at
work</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; basically, people
in social web realm have a big cultural difference</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; w3c needs to get
closer to running code</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; danbri: protocols
with security are the way to go</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; danbri: for
standards body</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; danbri: but schemas
should be informal</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; can we build
hackfests into our program</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i mean, if you're
doing a protocol, it needs more review and formality than
making a descriptive schema</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; +1 re hackfests</p>
<p class='phone'>schemas may best be built informally, like at
a hack fest, where at protocols tend to need more effort, and
as a result might need a working group</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; how can we get this
energy channelled</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; back to running
code</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; thanks alot!</p>
<p class='phone'>pete thinks this is exciting, and he will get
people from his group to try and get involved with the SWXG</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; thanks stpeter!</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> i will do it</p><a name=
"action10" id="action10"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> mischa to write up Peter's talk on
XMPP [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-95
- Write up Peter's talk on XMPP [on Mischa Tuffield - due
2009-10-07].</p>
<p class='phone'>bye all</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Meeting
adjourned</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; re future meetings,
i circulated <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/WidgetsDiscussion">
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/WidgetsDiscussion</a>
and got positive feedback from David Recordon and Joseph
Smarr</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; bye</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; thanks!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; rrsrrsagent, create
minutes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
meeting</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Harry to invite
Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mischa to write
up Peter's talk on XMPP [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mischat to invite
BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mtiffiel to
invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mtuffield to
invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> petef to look
into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> pferne to look
into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />
&nbsp;<br />
<strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to
book global lockbox as an invited speaker [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />
<strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to
summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread
knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Mischa to
describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they
change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
&nbsp;<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
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$Date: 2009/10/02 17:05:19 $
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