Another abandoned server code base... this is kind of an ancestor of taskrambler.
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<title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 21 Apr
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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>21 Apr 2010</h2>
<p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-irc">IRC
log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb,
yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Harry</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>Dan</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">Action reminders</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">request from Jeff.</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">Proposals for lightweight process
changes</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 21 April
2010</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; but why don't you
see anyone on channel?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; hhalpin - I've told
trackbot to start the meeting, and RRSAgent and Zakim are doing
their things ... except that Zakim doesn't seem to see anyone
on channel, only on the phone...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Hi all.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; can hear you</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, start
meeting</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Meeting: Social
Web Incubator Group Teleconference</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 21 April
2010</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Can't chair - but could
scribe.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Scribe: Dan</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ScribeNick: DKA</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Jeff Jaffee is very
interested in [process changes?] in w3c. Hoping we can come to
consensus on some of these issues.</p>
<p class='phone'>Harry can you share the link?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; IP caller?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; +yoshiaki; got
it</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Approve
minutes?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 approve</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Minutes from April
14th approved</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> next week should we cancel
the meeting (because of www2010)?</p>
<p class='phone'>+1 for canceling</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i could be here</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; -1 canceling</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AnitaD</cite>&gt; -1 I cant make
it</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Next meeting
cancelled</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; But resume as
normal with policy language discussions and information
cards</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; for the first
Wednesday in May</p>
<p class='phone'>Next meeting - may 5th</p>
<h3 id="item01">Action reminders</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think the first wed
in May is the 5th</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Please check all your
actions [and report on status to the mailing list]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open">
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open</a></p>
<h3 id="item02">request from Jeff.</h3>
<h3 id="item03">Proposals for lightweight process changes</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribenick:
hhalpin</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> there is a proposal called
W3C outpost thought up by DKA<br />
... and Robin Berjon</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Jeff would like
to get approval for some proposals of opening up W3c at next
TPAc (in November).</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: To be discussed
at www2010.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; That is the outposts
proposal.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Most of the work done
by Robin, to be clear.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> How can W3C help these
efforts?<br />
... efforts like OMB, Salmon Protocol, how can we help these
efforts<br />
... pose the question that way, as opposed to why these efforts
aren't happening at W3C<br />
... which is different than saying what's the problem, W3C is
the answer<br />
... the point of this proposal<br />
... is for the W3C to provide tools and basic templates<br />
... high quality tools like issue tracking, actions, IRC
channels, stuff like trackbot<br />
... and provide this as a kind of package with minimal staff
impact<br />
... provide some kind of IPR for efforts<br />
... often the intention is to release it royalty-free, but
there's issues with understanding tricky legal issues re
copyright, open source<br />
... so W3C could provide these tools and processes<br />
... so that fledgling efforts could use them<br />
... with minimal effort, like making the XG process even
easier<br />
... so we don't even have W3C members at all.<br />
... just one W3C member as a suggestor, not even a
sponsor<br />
... the Outpost proposal is to see how W3C proposal could help
these efforts around<br />
... so we had this discussion at the AC meeting.<br />
... so we had another discussion about how W3C standards can be
fed to ISO groups<br />
... and so make them "real" standards in the very formal sense
of the word<br />
... as W3C standards are actually recommendations<br />
... so the point is at least 2 individuals from 2 different
companies<br />
... can then make a roadmap between that kind of work and ISO
standardization<br />
... in helping to bridge that gap.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: any
questions?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; good idea</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; definitely good
idea</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; good idea</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; good idea
indeed</p>
<p class='phone'>Community Group?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: 2 points - good
idea, I worry about the name "outposts" - sounds like w3c
colonising... rather than helping people.</p>
<p class='phone'>ah, an embassy in another realm</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> to be the opposite of
colonization<br />
... it should have a different identity<br />
... different website<br />
... to prevent developers etc. from being alienated<br />
... including academic sheen<br />
... the point of the name is to sound cool</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> We need a better
communication<br />
... W3C standards aren't really standards, they're
Recommendations<br />
... origins were in trying to unify and stop failure of
interoperability<br />
... the browser wars</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I think that's
more likely to happen with a better communications effort. As
you say, W3C standards aren't really standards. Their origins
were in efforts to aid interoperability.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: as things have
been evolving, they are shifting towards forward thinking...
that's a different thing?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: how could the
suggestion be advertised differently?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: Opening
processes is definitely useful. Don't know about "outposts" as
a brand. Most of the summary sounds likes a win.</p>
<p class='phone'>W3C Frontier?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: ...but in the
same space, creating a new space doesn't necessarily changes
the perception about w3c. If there are perceptions against w3c
then let's change that. Maybe "W3C Frontier" would make more
sense?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: idea makes sense
to me. I don't like the word "frontier" either.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; (I like "frontier" as
well... :) )</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: I had a
conversation with Facebook. Asked them - why are you using
things like google groups - maybe google isn't a neutral 3rd
party? The response I got: we would be happy to use a w3c list
but [too difficult].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: another point
made by fb - the login. If you use a google group, most people
have a google account so easy to log in...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; [low friction]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; I agree</p>
<p class='phone'>ah I see!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; variant: I have
one google account, and people keep inviting me to google docs
on another address, which I do not want to register in my
google account</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I have 2 google
accounts - it's very difficult to manage that in that
situation...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; openID....</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; but I agree: this
makes it easier for many people</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; foaf+ssl ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; yes to both :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: different
issues in different places... If the pain they're trying to
solve is - having an account in w3c space - you've got to have
some kind of account if there's going to be moderation...</p>
<p class='phone'>add easy comments via a webform.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Google groups
also uses a blog-like interface where you can add comments very
easily...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: That's an
interface issue - we could do the same ...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; im not sure its that
appealing</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: any other
comments on outposts or on opening up w3c?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Other
comments...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; if i have to ask
someone if they know what w3c is, and they answer 'no' there is
little point in explaining</p>
<p class='phone'>perceived formality of many things?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: One offputting
thing about w3c is the perceived formality - the perceived
formal process which can be very offputting if you don't know
what it is.</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://www.w3.org/Submission/">http://www.w3.org/Submission/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: one of the other
issues that has been made. Are people familiar with the w3c
member submission process?</p>
<p class='phone'>Public Submissions process?</p>
<p class='phone'>Which takes submissions from the general
public</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: If you make a
spec - you can submit it to w3c as a member submission but only
if you are a member. Another idea is a "public submission
process" which takes submissions from the general public.</p>
<p class='phone'>a separate index and formatting from actual
member submissions and Rec-track work</p>
<p class='phone'>get a Team comment</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: would allow
people who already developed something to submit...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: as the web has
grown so exponentially it's difficult for Tim [or anyone else}
to know what's going on everywhere. So this is one way to allow
suggestions from all over...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: That seems like
a reinvention of rfc...</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html">http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>is basically patent policy</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: it is, but with
a difference - difference between ietf and w3c is patent
policy.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; honestly, IMHO, this
sounds more like a hammer looking for a nail than a nail that
needs a hammer</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; "W3C: Bringing hammers
and nails together since 1992"</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; heh</p>
<p class='phone'>levels of membership?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: perhaps there's
a question of levels of membership.</p>
<p class='phone'>no, besides invited experts</p>
<p class='phone'>precisely, and jeff himself is interested in
this space now</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Let's revisit the reasons
we're interested in.<br />
... we need to be really careful about saying that the answer
must be W3C<br />
... so whether or not these assets that W3C brings to the
table<br />
... can make these benefits available to fledgling efforts who
think<br />
... they may not need the level of W3C process in
collaboration<br />
... but notice if they don't IP</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i agree</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that's why I think a new
website, a brand, will make a real difference.<br />
... the benefit will only be realized if there is a new staff
role is an evangelist type role<br />
... that gets into these community</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; amen!</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that is aware and
participates of these community efforts<br />
... and that brings the benefits and tools to these
efforts<br />
... rather than say we're w3c, look at our great stuff w3c.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: some of these
efforts like activity streams or portable contacts would say
"we're not in the wild- we already have uptake" but at the same
point, they might need to start thinking about IP issues...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: some of these
social web efforts are fairly mature though the big problem of
distributed mature social networks is far from solved...</p>
<p class='phone'>DKA by suggestion do you basically kinda mean
liason?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: W3C doesn't have
liaisons with web 2.0 social stuff...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; sounds like it</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I'm becoming
less clear on what the goal is... W3C has these great tools and
we want to make them available... But we actually want to use
them to lure you in... and there is only dues-paying
membership...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Big benefit of
w3c is the royalty-free patent policy. Meta-level goal is to
make sure that these standards are open and royalty-free.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1 on patent policy
being a key benefit</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: that's why w3c
has to be a member organization.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: you have to have
members who have companies who have patents but a lot of the
creativity comes from the community groups...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; this doesnt sounds
like a great idea to me</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> free membership hasn't been
taken off the table<br />
... there is an argument that it would bring funding into the
organization<br />
... although others worry it may take away the funding<br />
... if there was a free category you'd have more agreement</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: you could
imagine some slightly re-jigged invited expert status...
Invited experts should not work for companies who have parents
in that area...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; without funding there
is more work with less money</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I'm not saying
that's not true but by that fact it kind of derails this other
effort. You have to be able to declare patent-free whatever
your contributions are. In order to do that you have to be
working for an entity that will declare it for you or declare
you free. There are legal costs...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: the conflict
only exists when you work for a company that may have patents
in that area...</p>
<p class='phone'>there's provisional patents as well :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: There's all
kind of aspects - employment contract law, patent law, etc...
Does lend weight to "there has to be a degree of corporate
involvement and therefore dues to support that" but that leads
us back to where we are today...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; harry is breaking
up</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> pushback from people in the
AAC<br />
... people who are not really exposed to community driven spec
development<br />
... questioning from folks who had just never heard of the
idea<br />
... I don't want to be mean, but I think we can discount
that.<br />
... since it wasn't grounded in the reality we're trying to
address here<br />
... so overall feedback is good<br />
... so there's a level of education we'll have to do to the
Advisory Committee<br />
... otherwise we'll get a lot of pushback from the ac-list</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: we could at
least endorse modulo name changes the w3c outposts
proposal...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> not clear.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I couldn't
endorse it in it's current state. The goals it's trying to
achieve are not clear and how it means to achieve them are not
clear.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; what i heard today
made me all sad. that is my best summation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>rreck:</cite> from a business-side it's
unclear if we can get more resources to supplement more
work<br />
... so we don't want to degrade participation in what W3C
has.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: the outposts
proposal would involve extra resources. The [risk we are trying
to mitigate</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...] is that "open
standards" aren't really open. If they don't have a [proven</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...] patent policy then
there could be a problem for businesses who are trying to
deploy these standards in the future.</p>
<p class='phone'>I do agree we are techies talking to techies,
but then we often have a good grasp of what's going on in the
field :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: We are talking
about techies talking to techies - bunch of random guys out
there working for somebody who may not have a claim on what
they're doing. What we want to have happen is.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ... for somebody say "I
agree I am not going to charge royalties"...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; s/adjourn//</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i have no audio
out</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ;lkasads 'k;</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; just nice to hear
y'voices ;)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i like and agree with
harry's point</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; s/ajourn/adjourn/</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; last oen</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='phone'>Meeting Adjourned</p>
<p class='phone'>trackbot, end meeting</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
<address>
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
$Date: 2010/04/21 16:09:58 $
</address>
<div class="diagnostics">
<hr />
<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
<pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
FAILED: s/adjourn//
FAILED: s/ajourn/adjourn/
Found Scribe: Dan
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: &lt;Dan&gt; ...
Found ScribeNick: DKA
Found ScribeNick: hhalpin
ScribeNicks: DKA, hhalpin
Default Present: MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb, yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck
Present: MacTed +95177aaaa pchampin DKA +049172247aabb yoshiaki melvster Anita hhalpin rreck
Found Date: 21 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items:
</pre>[End of <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
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