You can not select more than 25 topics
Topics must start with a letter or number, can include dashes ('-') and can be up to 35 characters long.
999 lines
37 KiB
999 lines
37 KiB
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
|
|
|
|
<html lang='en' xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
|
|
<head>
|
|
<meta name="generator" content=
|
|
"HTML Tidy for Linux (vers 6 November 2007), see www.w3.org" />
|
|
|
|
<title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 09 Jun
|
|
2010</title>
|
|
<link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/base.css" />
|
|
<link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/public.css" />
|
|
<link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2004/02/minutes-style.css" />
|
|
<meta content="Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference" name=
|
|
"Title" />
|
|
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=
|
|
"Content-Type" />
|
|
</head>
|
|
|
|
<body>
|
|
<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C" border="0" height=
|
|
"48" width="72" /></a></p>
|
|
|
|
<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
|
|
|
|
<h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>
|
|
|
|
<h2>09 Jun 2010</h2>
|
|
|
|
<p><a href=
|
|
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jun/0010.html'>
|
|
Agenda</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/06/09-swxg-irc">IRC
|
|
log</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
|
|
|
|
<div class="intro">
|
|
<dl>
|
|
<dt>Present</dt>
|
|
|
|
<dd>MacTed, Thomas, +1.781.416.aaaa, +1.218.296.aabb, paul,
|
|
rreck, hhalpin, danbri, oshani, +1.510.931.aadd, melvster,
|
|
+1.510.931.aaee</dd>
|
|
|
|
<dt>Regrets</dt>
|
|
|
|
<dt>Chair</dt>
|
|
|
|
<dd>hhalpin</dd>
|
|
|
|
<dt>Scribe</dt>
|
|
|
|
<dd>danbri</dd>
|
|
</dl>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<h2>Contents</h2>
|
|
|
|
<ul>
|
|
<li>
|
|
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
|
|
|
|
<ol>
|
|
<li><a href="#item01">final report updates</a></li>
|
|
|
|
<li><a href="#item02">Paul Trethevick on the State of
|
|
Digital Identity</a></li>
|
|
</ol>
|
|
</li>
|
|
|
|
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
|
|
</ul>
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<div class="meeting">
|
|
<p class='phone'></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 09 June
|
|
2010</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>MacTed</cite>> paul, is that 416
|
|
number you?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>paul</cite>> I'm on a 781
|
|
number</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> 781.416...?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> are we meeting?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> me too</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>i'm having trouble geting in too</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> the UK and FR lines
|
|
seem to have issues, yes</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> afk</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Mischa - can you
|
|
scribe?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> scribe: danbri</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>is the log loggering?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> PROPOSED: to
|
|
approve minutes from June 2nd meeting.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> +1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> RESOLVED: approved
|
|
minutes from June 2nd meeting</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>danbri regrets for next week (Notube f2f
|
|
project meeting)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Next Meeting:
|
|
Distributed access control languages for privacy providers, MIT
|
|
on AIR and PrimeLife on XACML</p>
|
|
|
|
<h3 id="item01">final report updates</h3>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> run-thru of final report
|
|
actions<br />
|
|
... we had several regrets<br />
|
|
... mischa started an etherpad draft</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> melvster: share
|
|
etherpad with the rest of the group?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> one sec</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> just dailing
|
|
in</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> sure!</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> *work in progress*
|
|
<a href=
|
|
"http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU">http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> i didn't make muh
|
|
progress on gap analysis</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>any prog on use cases?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
|
|
"http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU">http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(i dropped some messy notes into etherpad but
|
|
not done much yet)</p>
|
|
|
|
<h3 id="item02">Paul Trethevick on the State of Digital
|
|
Identity</h3>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(welcome Paul...)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069">http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>ok i won't scribe things that are in the
|
|
slides</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/active-clients-and-pd-ses-4452852">
|
|
http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/active-clients-and-pd-ses-4452852</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>who joined?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Paul, do you wish
|
|
to begin?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Paul:</cite> Harry asked for a few
|
|
thoughts on state of Identity industry. Hard challenge!</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> So we are on first
|
|
slide-deck, i.e. <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069">http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Paul:</cite> identity hard problem as
|
|
perceived differently in different communities<br />
|
|
... language varies by community; it 'obviously' means x to
|
|
some, something quite different / richer to others</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish</cite>> hi</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Paul:</cite> some call that more
|
|
advanced form 'claims based' identity<br />
|
|
... you don't necessarily need to identify a person to haev an
|
|
interaction<br />
|
|
... some see authorisation as primal, identification as
|
|
secondary</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> bblfish: <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069">http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Paul:</cite> most of us tend to drop the
|
|
word entirely due to these kinds of confusion<br />
|
|
... i was looking yesterday at privacy aware Web definitions,
|
|
use of 'publisher', ... have to get over these kinds of
|
|
terminological problems<br />
|
|
... - requirements vary by community<br />
|
|
... idea that different people are trying to solve slightly
|
|
different problems<br />
|
|
... why do we look at this so differently?<br />
|
|
... idea of levels of assurance, eg. NIST's 4 levels<br />
|
|
... how much can relying party depend on strength of some
|
|
assertions<br />
|
|
... some need levels of assurance > 1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(hmm this? <a href=
|
|
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Assurance_Framework#Assurance_Level_Criteria">
|
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Assurance_Framework#Assurance_Level_Criteria</a>
|
|
)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> NIST levels are
|
|
interesting...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> challenge here , some
|
|
feel that anything > 1 is irrelevant, uninteresting<br />
|
|
... that perspective driven by high volume, low value social
|
|
web transactions<br />
|
|
... those on higher level (payment, govt) sometimes feel like
|
|
'long tail' cornercases</p><br />
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> but the high-volume
|
|
transactions can eventually get need higher NIST level, i.e.
|
|
binding payment to your social networking account ala
|
|
Payswarm</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> also eg yesterday talked
|
|
w/ natioanl cancer institute re sharing medical records<br />
|
|
... also Verified vs self-asserted attributes<br />
|
|
... much socialweb stuff is just asserted by end users<br />
|
|
... other scenarios (reputation systems, payment systems), ...
|
|
some people / communities will look at these requirements and
|
|
say 'no thanks'<br />
|
|
... eg. equifax can issue 'bearer of assertion is > 21 years
|
|
old' (but we'll reveal nothing else about them)<br />
|
|
... a lot of probs around protecting children are around lack
|
|
of verified 3rd party assertions of attributes<br />
|
|
... also req: need to aggregate from multiple different
|
|
providers<br />
|
|
... for high volume / simple sites, this isn't a problem<br />
|
|
... other use cases, you distinguish even from an ID provider
|
|
and an attribute provider</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> attribute
|
|
provider/identity provider an interesting distinction.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> you can not have to keep
|
|
authenticating but can aggregate attribs [missed]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[slide 5 now on slideshare]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> linkability<br />
|
|
... this makes perfect sense to some, but too much for others
|
|
[see kim camerons laws of id ... re deployable systems]<br />
|
|
... you can agree / disagree, but this is the landscape of
|
|
[lack of ] consensus</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>"Some uses cases require high assurance and
|
|
unlinkability (and sometimes even offline presentation of
|
|
security tokens)."</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>submarine example; disconnected from 'net but
|
|
need to auth things internally</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> a lot of discussion
|
|
lately re levels of protection<br />
|
|
... converse of levels of assurance<br />
|
|
... coudl we could to a world where use is a party to digitally
|
|
signed contract<br />
|
|
... it's released to relying party, but the rp is bound not to
|
|
resell<br />
|
|
... for that to be non-repudiable, need ... [missed detail,
|
|
sorry]<br />
|
|
... concern that lately too much emphasis on crypto<br />
|
|
... some control, but also more on accountability, in everyday
|
|
life</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish</cite>> zakim aaee is
|
|
bblfish</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so there are only
|
|
prototypes of tech currently that can handle this<br />
|
|
... again these are just examples of why this [consensus] is
|
|
hard<br />
|
|
... hard to build something universal, addressing all
|
|
requirements<br />
|
|
... ie. this talk might be considered something of an apology
|
|
for lack of progress given the energy/effort</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> no apologies needed
|
|
paul, there is clearly progress being made and the problem is
|
|
hard!</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> several community</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Identity Commons (2005) <a href=
|
|
"http://idcommons.net">http://idcommons.net</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> distinguishing open /
|
|
user centric id folk from enterprise / proprietary world (of
|
|
which i know little)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>IIW is the (intense, 3 day) hub of this
|
|
world</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> OpenID Foundation (2007)
|
|
<a href="http://openid.net">http://openid.net</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[ is <a href=
|
|
"http://community.livejournal.com/lj_dev/683939.html">http://community.livejournal.com/lj_dev/683939.html</a>
|
|
the 1st openid spec btw?]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> internal competition
|
|
within openid now<br />
|
|
... different groups, perceive problem sets differently<br />
|
|
...Qs: what is the openid foundation? a broad church or an
|
|
advocacy org for one particiular protocol?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>dataportability? DataPortability.org
|
|
(2007)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> struck a nerve re user
|
|
control</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Information Card Foundation (2008) <a href=
|
|
"http://informationcard.net">http://informationcard.net</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> began around ms cardspace
|
|
and oasis IMI, ...<br />
|
|
... "Next generation: Integrated with the browser. Consistent
|
|
UX across protocols including: un/pw, OpenID (to reduce
|
|
phishing), IMI (legacy), and OpenID V.Next, client side certs
|
|
(perhaps)?"<br />
|
|
... that foundation also at a crossroads<br />
|
|
... is more emphasising active clients<br />
|
|
... found some issues w/ active clients</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>esp requiring a download, and insisting on a
|
|
single unifying protocol</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> soul-searching and next
|
|
gen work<br />
|
|
... moving beyond single protocol</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>makign it 'better with'</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>"Kantara (2009) - <a href=
|
|
"http://kantarainitiative.org">http://kantarainitiative.org</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> kinda interesting<br />
|
|
... analysis coupleyears ago, interviewed rigorously many from
|
|
ID scene<br />
|
|
... under NDA<br />
|
|
... to make a new org<br />
|
|
... they [we] concluded that we have moved into a
|
|
cross-protocol era<br />
|
|
... needed a pulling together of a number of these disperate
|
|
communities<br />
|
|
... was then the old liberty alliance, saml work<br />
|
|
... which was a response to hailstorm/passport<br />
|
|
... also openid appeared<br />
|
|
... 3 tech groups appeared<br />
|
|
... to some extent it's an unrealised objective<br />
|
|
... strategically it's right<br />
|
|
... Kantara replaced liberty alliance<br />
|
|
... and working on some crosscutting stuff</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>( also new ones this year )</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>a joint board, infocard and openid(?)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> discussion of what's
|
|
missing, usability vs specs<br />
|
|
... role of biz agreements that allocate liability<br />
|
|
... joint sales efforts<br />
|
|
... obama team wanted to open govt up and use commercial ids
|
|
from industry<br />
|
|
... catalytic effect<br />
|
|
... govt said we like openid, but want also stronger
|
|
assurances, info card stuff, ... but hey we're just a
|
|
customer,...<br />
|
|
... big enough that got attention of those 2 foundations, who
|
|
self-organized and stopped quibbling<br />
|
|
... in some way stopped competing a bit<br />
|
|
... united front to the federal govt, and said 'whichever, we
|
|
see the fed govt won't enter into commercial relationships w/
|
|
for example paypal, yahoo, google, whoever... unless there are
|
|
certifiable properties, privacy characteristics, audits,
|
|
...<br />
|
|
... understand liability, ...<br />
|
|
... caused spontaneous creation of the Open Identity
|
|
Exchange</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(OIX?)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so they joined forces to
|
|
form that</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> danbri, you wanted to
|
|
ask how messy patent situation is (what is feasible
|
|
royalty-free?)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(patent talk later)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>kantara and others ... corporate sponsors, +
|
|
leadership council</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(i missed some detail)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> likes the community
|
|
members and corporate sponsor model, maybe that could work for
|
|
the w3c</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>oidf and icf ,... same governance model,
|
|
blender board, 1 member one vote, community members
|
|
outweigh</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> re participartion, indivs
|
|
and companies can join, but $100 for an indiv, in some cases
|
|
$25<br />
|
|
... in terms of how openly they operate, that could be
|
|
debated<br />
|
|
... theoretically, all open to all<br />
|
|
... but strong interpersonal relationships and personalities
|
|
are in many cases the driver of what happens than the formal
|
|
structures<br />
|
|
... has to be seen to be believed<br />
|
|
... this is not something like w3c or oasis<br />
|
|
... kantara is most formal/structure, icf more, openid
|
|
foundation</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>they all have public archived mailing
|
|
lists</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>all 3 have private board lists</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>vast majority of everything is public</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>last one, Xauth, is interesting ---</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>--- it's a way to personalise the login
|
|
situation</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> if oyu only have an
|
|
unmodified browser, you show up with a fresh browser it can't
|
|
be customised</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(forgetting the CSS History hack :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> school of thought that
|
|
says 'browsers don't know who you are ...<br />
|
|
... nor who your preferred attribute/identity providers
|
|
are<br />
|
|
... hence the 'nascar problem', long list of logos<br />
|
|
... so a tyranny of the mega-brands<br />
|
|
... so relying parties put facebook/google/yahoo at the
|
|
top<br />
|
|
... which has a somewhat perverse effect<br />
|
|
... xauth says with html5 and some tricks, we can hack a way
|
|
for the relying party to learn what someone's prefs are<br />
|
|
... shorter list<br />
|
|
... these are ways to work around an architectural
|
|
problem<br />
|
|
... which is that browsers don't know who you are<br />
|
|
... slide 7 <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069">http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069</a><br />
|
|
|
|
... openid 2.0 (legacy openid)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>50k sites and growing, relying parties</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> q is where we go from
|
|
here</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>openid has a number of problems</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>3 key</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>1 - OpenID-AB [Attribute Binding] - <a href=
|
|
"http://bitbucket.org/openid/ab/wiki/Home">http://bitbucket.org/openid/ab/wiki/Home</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Proposed by Nat Sakamura and others in early
|
|
2009</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> has not had much
|
|
attention yet</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>2 - OpenID V.Next</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(discussed last fall and this spring at
|
|
IIW)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>v.Next codename for whatever appens</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>in May, OpenID Connect proposal from David
|
|
Recordon (and social Web friends)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>all these 3 are breaking changes</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>not backwards compatible</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> I don't yet see how this
|
|
is going to get resolved<br />
|
|
... openid connect is 'get a spec out there ... let's just do
|
|
it!'<br />
|
|
... caught some ppl by suprise<br />
|
|
... openid community is trying to figure out a way fwd thru all
|
|
this<br />
|
|
... I hope the earlier slides set some context for this<br />
|
|
... and difficulty in agreeing even common requirements</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Slide 9 -</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>personal opinion -</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> we can't stop creation of
|
|
new protocols<br />
|
|
... open, etc<br />
|
|
... what happens a lot is much reinvention<br />
|
|
... come up with stuff, don't see what came before<br />
|
|
... do something quick/dirty that solves some problems
|
|
now<br />
|
|
... then start making it more robust<br />
|
|
... realise it isn't 80% solution, but 45%, ...<br />
|
|
... then someone new jumps in<br />
|
|
... natural cycle of reinvention<br />
|
|
... yesterday/last-night investigating webid [ie. foaf+ssl]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish</cite>> I'd say WebId being
|
|
based on the semweb, in one protocol that can then bind all of
|
|
them together.... One can bind in OpenId for example. (not sure
|
|
about the others)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> looks like it would solve
|
|
some fraction of use cases, has nice characteristics<br />
|
|
... but partial solution<br />
|
|
... not clear how much things will converge<br />
|
|
... or how much analogy with email, where Internet email
|
|
eventually dominated<br />
|
|
... i note that whenever we build something new that gets used,
|
|
... it is out there and not going away<br />
|
|
... and that username + password could easily stay dominant for
|
|
10+ more years<br />
|
|
... we have learned things<br />
|
|
... users don't care<br />
|
|
... they want something that makes sense to them<br />
|
|
... ux is the key to them<br />
|
|
... if you go to an RP and say 'this is great tech, saml no
|
|
infocard no openid no ...." the RP will say "well, we have to
|
|
support at least username/ password .. and i'll have to link
|
|
the accounts ...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish</cite>> (note on above
|
|
there is work integrating WebID with SAML in Machester, with
|
|
SOAP in University of Southampton...)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so the RPs live in a
|
|
necessarily multi-protocol world</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>but our communities don't organize in those
|
|
terms</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> eg create a common apache
|
|
module<br />
|
|
... this is a structural problem</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[ very interesting! --danbri ]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> communities eventually
|
|
say 'oh we have overlap, need to blend things ... '<br />
|
|
... attempts to say 'here is an active client, eg. ms cardspace
|
|
'. ... it just didn't work<br />
|
|
... to use the solution, you needed 'this thing', the right
|
|
version with your OS, download it if needed, need to be on
|
|
windows, etc etc<br />
|
|
... so the idea that active clients needed for system to work
|
|
... a nonstarterr<br />
|
|
... always this locked down enterprise computer, library kiosk,
|
|
... person can't install plugin, upgrade a pc, etc ...<br />
|
|
... so lately active client ppl have a 'better with'
|
|
approach<br />
|
|
... ie. it works normally but is 'better with' the addon
|
|
(whether an ng-browser, or addon)<br />
|
|
... ppl look at 'open identity community' and they see a
|
|
swirling churning mess of people putting down each other's
|
|
stuff, partial penetration, etc<br />
|
|
... and they say 'ok, let's wait for this catfight to calm
|
|
down'<br />
|
|
... status quo, is do nothing, use a proprietary thing, if
|
|
username/password don't do it<br />
|
|
... with 1 exception: facebook connect, picking up a lot of use
|
|
across Web<br />
|
|
... they have an id tech plus attributes<br />
|
|
... last pt: the identity community, with all these nonprofits,
|
|
is not structurally in a good place to solve needs of the
|
|
marketplace<br />
|
|
... couple of specific points re socialweb<br />
|
|
... identifiers and user experience<br />
|
|
... my perception<br />
|
|
... in beginning, was 'type in your openid URI'<br />
|
|
... rough consensus: not working<br />
|
|
... they understand it only as for pages/info<br />
|
|
... doesn't work on ppl<br />
|
|
... they understand email addresses<br />
|
|
... so openid said 'click on a button'<br />
|
|
... but measured results were higher conversion rates</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsearls2</cite>> Hey Dan, all. It's
|
|
Doc.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> with benefit to those at
|
|
top of list</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>see link for logs, doc</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsearls2</cite>> ok</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> 'people get that, re use of
|
|
email<br />
|
|
... end-user re-education is a huge issue<br />
|
|
... and now with xauth we can personalise the nascar icon list
|
|
to something more manageable<br />
|
|
... best we can do short of active client<br />
|
|
... slide 12:</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>oshani</cite>> dsearls2, here's the
|
|
slides: <a href=
|
|
"http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069">http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/swxg-201069</a></p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>attribute schemes</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> there are so many of
|
|
these things, so much overlap, ...<br />
|
|
... if you start taking view from biz point of view, that
|
|
relying party is key ,... you want that to be easy as
|
|
possible</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>too many schemas makes RP's life hard</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> danbri, you wanted to
|
|
ask how messy patent situation is (what is feasible
|
|
royalty-free?) and to</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[other deck]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>can you scribe harry?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> thanks for your
|
|
presentation, it was very informative</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> scribenick:
|
|
hhalpin</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>danbri:</cite> any patents in identity
|
|
scene?<br />
|
|
... any idea how messy situation is?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> it doesnt get talked about
|
|
that much<br />
|
|
... varies by organization depending on struture<br />
|
|
... we try in ICF and Kantara to have IPR rules</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>danbri</cite>> (w3c history - eg
|
|
see <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/TR/P3P-analysis">http://www.w3.org/TR/P3P-analysis</a>
|
|
)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> we can tell that things
|
|
happen just willy nilly<br />
|
|
... not developed in a structure and not necessarily
|
|
ideal<br />
|
|
... pretty confusing to me<br />
|
|
... hard to know whats lurking out there, esp. with OpenID</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>danbri:</cite> if we wanted to get
|
|
something in all the browsers<br />
|
|
... could we get those vendors to commit to RF-status?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> I work in this Eclipse
|
|
Higgins project<br />
|
|
... so our patent reviews are pretty good<br />
|
|
... an explicit license is being given to contribution</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>danbri:</cite> relevant specification,
|
|
go back to paper trail to see how the W3C developed its patent
|
|
policy</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> not sure re specs</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribenick:
|
|
danbri</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> paul: awesome
|
|
job</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> ?q</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> heh</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> tlr, you wanted to
|
|
ask whether Paul sees any chance for the identity work to move
|
|
into less willy-nilly space, eventually</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>tlr:</cite> thx for the talk, paul<br />
|
|
... in your answer to danbri's impossible q, you sounded mildly
|
|
frustrated<br />
|
|
... re work happening in a 'willy nilly' way<br />
|
|
... see any chance for that to fix itself over time?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> for full disclosure, ...
|
|
there is a project 'bingo' towards consolidating a number of
|
|
these efforts, back into a more structured but broad
|
|
church<br />
|
|
... where the church is about consistent
|
|
messaging/marketing/ipr, not tech<br />
|
|
... my personal bias is that we would do better to come up with
|
|
a broad base consolidating a number of these</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsearls2</cite>> Think big tent
|
|
instead of church.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> but saying that i can hear
|
|
friends of mine like dave recordon, chris messina, saying 'we
|
|
can just hack it...'<br />
|
|
... but when the recession came, they took jobs at big
|
|
companies<br />
|
|
... so now when they say it you have to consider the source,
|
|
they work for google, yahoo, facebook etc</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> Hey, I am
|
|
unemployed now!</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsearls2</cite>> Dave works for a
|
|
different big co every year.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> so you can trust
|
|
me :-)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> you always have to figure
|
|
out what's personal view, and what [ not wanting to say
|
|
something unfair here ] ... looking at openid connect,
|
|
...<br />
|
|
... could be perceived as a retrospective stdisation of fb
|
|
connect</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> theres also Google
|
|
FriendConnect</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> i.e. FriendSense
|
|
:)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> some aren't so concerned
|
|
for the crypto<br />
|
|
... and oauth hardcodes rather a lot<br />
|
|
... so i'm somewhat at a loss to predict what'll happen</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> hhalpin, you wanted
|
|
to ask about browser integration and w3c</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>harry:</cite> a lot of discussion
|
|
talking more now about browser-based integration<br />
|
|
... w3c has some work there w/ html5, ... and w/ big browser
|
|
makers<br />
|
|
... discussion before re w3c involvement has focussed on its
|
|
membership model which can be seen as exclusive<br />
|
|
... do you think w3c could have a role w/ one or more
|
|
foundations, to see if some mature tech here could go into new
|
|
browsers?<br />
|
|
... possibility of stdisation (at format level? more w3c's
|
|
thing than protocols which go better at ietf)<br />
|
|
... if so, what to do about the number of these
|
|
foundations?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> got to go, thanks
|
|
again</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>harry:</cite> trying to appreciate
|
|
thigns on a tech level, and figure out what kind of a role
|
|
might make sense for us<br />
|
|
... eg. browser aspect, html5 etc happening</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> I think now is a great
|
|
time<br />
|
|
... things are at a crossroads in most of the foundations<br />
|
|
... kantara, oidf, ... [missed last acronym]<br />
|
|
... dan based on your comments last week, i've mentioned to
|
|
others there might be a new actor [=w3c] to consider</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsearls2</cite>> ICF... Information
|
|
Card Foundation</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> there is sort of this
|
|
feeling that, from the californian web kids' perspective, ...
|
|
that w3c isn't relevant but browser folk are, ... if you get
|
|
mozilla to build this stuff in, that's the way to go<br />
|
|
... and html5 is a part of the equation<br />
|
|
... more discussion about getting this into browsers [ie,
|
|
firefox, chrome] than html5<br />
|
|
... but that's not to say there's nothing discussed there</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> also notes two
|
|
years ago I was talking about OpenID with Hixie at TPAC :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> 2 years ago, w/ david
|
|
recordon, relying party metadata stuff should be in html5</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(thx dsearls2)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> my personal belief, that
|
|
w3c thru html5 angle, a great place to advance this idea of
|
|
active clients, ID in the browser, ...<br />
|
|
... has in past been a lot of outreach from w3c on these
|
|
things<br />
|
|
... in past, ID folks also tended to talk amongst themselves,
|
|
but not have strong links to browser world<br />
|
|
... speaking for info card foundation, definitely
|
|
interested</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> paul, I'd be happy to
|
|
help with that sort of discussion from the W3C side</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> and kantara, new
|
|
chair...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>(tlr, can you put that in audio, don't know if
|
|
paul reading irc)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> happy to</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> some will be wary of even
|
|
more institutionalisation<br />
|
|
... there are threads, eg. 'if the openid foundation doesn't do
|
|
it, we'll just do it'</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>tlr, these days we are shying away from joint
|
|
work with the ietf ...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> in sense of a group being
|
|
simultatnously belong to both<br />
|
|
... however we are doing much more heavily coordinated work
|
|
with them, and it is going pretty well</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> The IETF does make
|
|
sense for OpenID connect, unless OpenID Connect feels like its
|
|
need browser integration or the W3C RF Patent Policy</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> re paul / infocard, ...
|
|
i'd behappy to help from w3c side<br />
|
|
... can take it to email and see where it goes</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> thx for mentioning webid
|
|
...<br />
|
|
... there has been work on linking that with SAML (from
|
|
manchester), with [missed, SOAP??] from S/hampton<br />
|
|
... because semweb is an abstraction of all syntaxes that it is
|
|
a perfect foundation for integrating all these different
|
|
pieces; you can map anything into the sw</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[any format at least? -- dan]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so you can see semweb as
|
|
a glue for all these pieces.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>tlr, url for diagrams?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> I understand, and happen to
|
|
think semweb and linked data have a bigger role to play in
|
|
future in identity ...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> hhalpin, you wanted
|
|
to ask about ostatus</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> q0</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>hhalpin [asks about ostatus]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> it absolutely is
|
|
related</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> ostatus framework
|
|
hooking up to OpenID/WebID/etc.?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> these 2 worlds have to come
|
|
together in a coherent way<br />
|
|
... ostatus stuff has to come together in a coherent way<br />
|
|
... with the identity world<br />
|
|
... some admirable things happening via 'small pieces loosly
|
|
joined'<br />
|
|
... ostatus is a great example of that<br />
|
|
... but if we step back and say 'lets look at it from ux
|
|
perspective' [as we're doing in new kantara group]<br />
|
|
... moving beyond simple login, ... it is about sharing, things
|
|
like ostatus, ... how do you make this understandable,
|
|
coherent, simple?<br />
|
|
... what i've found, the need to knit things together becomes
|
|
self-evident, and the gaps in the available technologies become
|
|
clearer</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>lately am trying to be ux first, tech 2nd</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> linked data has a
|
|
fairly hostile user experience :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so there i think we need
|
|
to think about ostatus, and about updates to linked data
|
|
too</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> good to be here forming
|
|
some bridges<br />
|
|
... diplomacy and tact may be undervalued in some community,
|
|
but it's the only way we'll make progress in the bigger
|
|
picture</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>tlr</cite>> Thanks, again, Paul for
|
|
joining!</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>+1, thanks Paul :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>paul</cite>> My pleasure</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> thanks paul,
|
|
awesome call</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> thanks, very
|
|
much</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>bblfish_</cite>> great talk</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> trackbot, end
|
|
meeting</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>paul</cite>> Thank you all. I look
|
|
forward to continuing</p>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
|
|
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
|
|
[End of minutes]<br />
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<address>
|
|
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
|
|
scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
|
|
$Date: 2010/06/09 16:17:51 $
|
|
</address>
|
|
|
|
<div class="diagnostics">
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
|
|
before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
|
|
<pre>
|
|
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
|
|
Check for newer version at <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>
|
|
|
|
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
|
|
|
|
Found Scribe: danbri
|
|
Inferring ScribeNick: danbri
|
|
Found ScribeNick: hhalpin
|
|
Found ScribeNick: danbri
|
|
ScribeNicks: danbri, hhalpin
|
|
Default Present: MacTed, Thomas, +1.781.416.aaaa, +1.218.296.aabb, paul, rreck, hhalpin, danbri, oshani, +1.510.931.aadd, melvster, +1.510.931.aaee
|
|
Present: MacTed Thomas +1.781.416.aaaa +1.218.296.aabb paul rreck hhalpin danbri oshani +1.510.931.aadd melvster +1.510.931.aaee
|
|
Agenda: <a href=
|
|
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jun/0010.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jun/0010.html</a>
|
|
Found Date: 09 Jun 2010
|
|
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/09-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/09-swxg-minutes.html</a>
|
|
People with action items:
|
|
|
|
</pre>[End of <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
|
|
scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
|
|
</div>
|
|
</body>
|
|
</html>
|