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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 10 Dec
2008</title>
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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>10 Dec 2008</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/SecondF2FAgenda'>Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Jack, Yves, Erik, Frank_(canon_observer), Raphael, Davy,
Tom, Wim, Silvia_(remote)</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>Michael</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Erik, Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>davy, erik, raphael</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1. Summary of F2F Day 1</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">2. Discussion of syntax</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">3. Summary of syntax
brainstorming</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">4. Internationalization</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">5. Review of Action Points</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">6. AOB</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>
<p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 10 December
2008</p>
<h3 id="item01">1. Summary of F2F Day 1</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Raphael: we have
discussed mainly 3 topics</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... Existing
technologies: survey of the various syntaxes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... Different
dimension for addressing fragments: name, time, space,
track</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... explain further
what we mean by tracks, i.e. what is available in the container
format</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... discuss
implementation issues dealing with caching</p>
<h3 id="item02">2. Discussion of syntax</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; See: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; scribenick: davy</p>
<p class='phone'>Raphael at the drawing board</p>
<p class='phone'>four different dimensions: time, space, track,
name</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> do we allow any
combination of these dimensions</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> shouldn't we use 'chapter'
instead of 'name'?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> which combinations do we
allow?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> use either name or a
combination of time, space, and track<br />
... multiple video tracks in combination with space will cause
problems<br />
... because there is no single resolution within the media
resource (in contrast to the time axis)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> do first the time or
track selection<br />
... afterwards, do the spatial clipping<br />
... we do not have any commutative problems because we specify
the processing order of the axex</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> ambiguous cases are
multiple track selections in combination with spatial
clipping</p>
<p class='phone'>How to specify the values of the different
dimensions?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/all.html">http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/all.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; scribenick: erik</p>
<p class='phone'>* time representation</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tom</cite>&gt; "The sub-frame is
sometimes referred to as a field in the context of
synchronization with an interlaced video media object."</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> npt and smpte are
essential</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to describe why smpte is the only
frame accurate one [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-25
- Describe why smpte is the only frame accurate one [on Jack
Jansen - due 2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> caching server will not
only want to record byte ranges, but also time info</p>
<p class='phone'>(and so thinks Yves)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> assumption, "&amp;" will
be our first separator (and try to avoid "/")</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; yves: if you specify a
fragment until the end of the stream, you specify a start,
followed by a separator, followed by nothing</p>
<p class='phone'>brainstorming ...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> begin time = download all
and seek<br />
... begin time "separator" = download from begin time to the
end and play<br />
... begin time "separator" [end time] = download from begin
time to end time and play<br />
... [begin time] "separator" end time = download from beginning
to end time and play</p>
<p class='phone'>second separator: ","</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; hi all</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Let me familiarize
myself with the agenda. I will only be able to attend for a
short while, I am expected at a team meeting this afternoon</p>
<p class='phone'>* name representation</p>
<p class='phone'>brainstorming ...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> if naming is available in
container formats, what can be used?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; anything could be used
provided it's % escaped in the URI</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> <a href=
"http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt</a>
... 2.3 unreserved characters</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>nessy</cite>&gt; me btw "/" has no
reserved purpose inside query or fragment as per that rfc</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; two solutions for
internationalization issue for named fragments</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2047">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2047</a></p><a name="action02"
id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Davy to look at various container
formats what kind of characters they allow to name their
tracks/fragments [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-26
- Look at various container formats what kind of characters
they allow to name their tracks/fragments [on Davy Van Deursen
- due 2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; 1. quotes + characters
+ % escaped</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; 2. only use the
unreserved characters (specified in URI 3986, sect. 2.3)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; we need to specify the
encoding used to define the name</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt;
=?iso-8859-1?q?this=20is=20some=20text?=</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; raphael: we will ask
Felix about this internationalization issue</p>
<p class='phone'>* track representation</p>
<p class='phone'>brainstorming ...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> track="some alphanumeric
stuff"<br />
... what's between quotes depends on container format</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> do we want to predefine
track names? ... very easy e.g. track="audio"</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; that could be left to
the user agent to determine</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; sakim, mute me</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> predefined track names
could be: audio, video, subtitle</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> do tracks for instance
always have id's?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>resolution:</cite> we only allow
tracknames that the underlying container formats know</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> is it mandatory to have a
kind of ROE-file for finding out the capabilities of a
resource?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; the user agent may have
schemes that will allow it to associate tracks ID to generic
names such as Audio for each media type. Can track IDs or
structuring help determine their type?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Examples : Audio track
track=AU184, track=AU185 become track=audio1 or track=audio2
for easy addressing, the user agent will do the translation</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Yes please!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Silvia: It is difficult
to follow on the phone, summary please</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Silvia - I am trying to
follow from South Africa</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; * space
representation</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; haha</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; brainstorming ...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; ... resolution: last
F2F ... only rectangle for v1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; jack: not using the
name "rect", please ... cause ambiguous ... rather have "xywh"
instead</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; See <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2008Nov/0091.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2008Nov/0091.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Silvia agree with Jack
xywh or TRBL ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; Jack's proposal:
xywh=20,20,40,40</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; trbl=20,20,40,40 means
the margins are 20,20,40,40</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; xywh=20,20,40,40 means
the pixel position 20,20 then offset 40 vertical and
horizontal</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; x1y1x2y2?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Jack about assuming
coordinate systems ( (0,0) at the top) and units (pixels or
inches?)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; extra questions:
what's the coordinate system and/or metrics?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; proposal syntax:
[xywh=int,int,int,int]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; proposal coordinate
system: [0,0]=top-left</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Typically this is a
rectangular crop operation. I'm not sure that a Crop operation
is best described using xywh, TRBL is clearer when cropping</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; proposal units:
default=pixels</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; with xywh we also
need to specify whether w goes left/right and h goes up/down
for xy position</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; ... within v1 no
alternatives allowed like cm,inch,point,%</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; with xywh you have a
problem that you could ask to crop regions that are out of
range. With TRBL one cannot</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; T margin-top, R
margin-right, B margin-bottom, L margin-left,</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; but again, the ordering
may be a problem.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; we can choose a scheme
and then user agents can do the conversion ... between cropping
schemes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; I thought trbl meant
(top,right) as start point and (bottom,left) as end point,
offset from [0,0]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; suggestion: TRBL</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; ... pro: not possible
to crop outside media</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; very confusing, yes
Silvia</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; ... con: not
intuitive</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; suggestion:
x1y1x2y2</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; I like x1y1x2y2, but
I don't like this name :)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; What's nice about the
name is that it gives the ordering clearly</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; lol</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; perfect</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; another good feature :
you don't always have to specify all the coordinates or all the
margin crops</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; jack: that is just
not a good feature</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Jack : 4 separate
parameters rather than one compound one</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Silvia: Name suggestion
for x1y1x2y2 ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Well the other name was
TopLeft-BottomRight</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; cartesian ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; cartesian
coordinates?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; final
suggestions:</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt;
xywh=int,int,int,int</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; or</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt;
x1y1x2y2=int,int,int,int [pixels]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt;
LTRB=int,int,int,int</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; or xy1xy2</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; In practice:
Practically with video image cropping, you want to make sure
that the width and height AND the positions are multiples (of 4
for example).</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; or xyxy</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; 1122=int,int,int</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Silvia?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt;
x1y1x2y2=int,int,int,int</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Jack: I remember you
talking about it!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; no objection to
x1y1x2y2</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; resolution: go for
x1y1x2y2 !</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; yay!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; Time currently
has: [format:]begin, end</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; is that
time=[format:]begin,end ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; So space could
have space=[unit:]x1, y1, x2, y2</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; Then default for
format would be "pixel" but allow for extension later</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Silvia</cite>&gt; possible confusion
about format -&gt; LTRB/x1y1x2y2 and format -&gt; unit</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=gent+media+fragments&amp;word2=gent+media+annotations">
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=gent+media+fragments&amp;word2=gent+media+annotations</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Almost a draw !
<a href="http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=video+media+fragments&amp;word2=video+media+annotations">
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=video+media+fragments&amp;word2=video+media+annotations</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Jack, are you talking
about relative dimensions such as % and em ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; raphael: good idea to
NOT mix units</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; What are the units
proposed?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt; ... and they should
all be possitive integers</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; gui, yes, we are
talking also about %</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; (and parsecs for
floating number examples)</p><a name="action03" id=
"action03"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik2</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> yves to propose by email a good list
of units that can be used [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-27
- Propose by email a good list of units that can be used [on
Yves Lafon - due 2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Hey ! <a href=
"http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=fragments+link&amp;word2=annotations+link">
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=fragments+link&amp;word2=annotations+link</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Before lunch ! <a href=
"http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=fragment+link&amp;word2=annotation+link">
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=fragment+link&amp;word2=annotation+link</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Fragments 11
Annotations 0 <a href=
"http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=%22links+to+fragments%22&amp;word2=%22links+to+annotations%22">
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&amp;word1=%22links+to+fragments%22&amp;word2=%22links+to+annotations%22</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Bon Appetit</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Gui</cite>&gt; Attending a meeting,
brb.</p>
<h3 id="item03">3. Summary of syntax brainstorming</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>jack:</cite> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax</a>
(thx Raphael for quick summary)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; scribenick
raphael</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; We are going
through the summary</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jack to suggest an exhaustive list of
possible values for (temporal) format in the proposed syntax
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-28
- Suggest an exhaustive list of possible values for (temporal)
format in the proposed syntax [on Jack Jansen - due
2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Discussion on
separators: primary can be '&amp;' or ';' secondary can be
','</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Jack: I suggest we
choose one in the WD but put in bold the question, which one we
should use</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Yves: I would
almost prefer ';' instead of '&amp;'</p><a name="action05" id=
"action05"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael to organize an
informal poll what is the best separator [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-29
- And Raphael to organize an informal poll what is the best
separator [on Erik Mannens - due 2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Yves: should the
value of the name dimension quoted?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... i would say:
<a href=
"http://www.example.com/movie.mov#name=">http://www.example.com/movie.mov#name=</a>"the%20kiss%20scene"</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Jack: I hate
x1y1x2y2!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... I would almost
prefer xywh</p><a name="action06" id="action06"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael organize an informal
poll what is the best way of specifying rectangle [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-30
- And Raphael organize an informal poll what is the best way of
specifying rectangle [on Erik Mannens - due 2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Yves: RFC 3986 says
that simple quote is a sub-delimiter in a URI</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... but double
quotes should be escaped</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; (allowed in fragments:
ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" / "~" / "!" / "$" / "&amp;" /
"'" / "(" / ")" / "*" / "+" / "," / ";" / "="</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; everything else has to
be %-escapes</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Jack: do we want
"time=" or "t="?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; All: we tend to
prefer "t="</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Davy: use "id="
instead = "name=" ... as CMML</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ALL: we tend to
prefer "id="</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Yves: we should
also quote track value, as they can come from an unbounded set
of caracters</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; All: agree</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; scribenick:
raphael</p>
<h3 id="item04">4. Internationalization</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we welcome the
assistance from Felix</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Felix:</cite> you should use UTF-8, and
%-escape caracters as per RFC3987</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I thought that %-escape
were latin-1 caracters</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Felix:</cite> a procedure is described
for translating any unicode caracters into %-escape UTF-8
characters</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> in this case, we can just
assume that the identifiers are UTF-8 encoded</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> so the syntax does not
need to include a particular encoding</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> if a movie has chapter
names in Japanese, then we can have a UTF-8 translation of this
name, either using a %-escape or not</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; am I still
in?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> the answer is then
provided by either URIs, or IRIs RFC (check later LEIRIs)</p>
<h3 id="item05">5. Review of Action Points</h3>
<p class='phone'>close action-14</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-14 Review
the use cases and requirements document closed</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; am I
alive?</p><a name="action07" id="action07"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael to organize a poll to
see whether the quotes around track and id are optional
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-31
- And Raphael to organize a poll to see whether the quotes
around track and id are optional [on Erik Mannens - due
2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I think quotes should be
optional</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I think quotes should be
mandatory</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> future telecon: 17/12
and 07/01<br />
... no telecon on 24/12 and 31/12</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; xmlspec:
<a href="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-report-v21.htm">http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-report-v21.htm</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2002/xmlspec/">http://www.w3.org/2002/xmlspec/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/">http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://people.w3.org/rishida/misc/xmlspec-guide.html">http://people.w3.org/rishida/misc/xmlspec-guide.html</a></p><a name="action08"
id="action08"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to check and grant cvs access to
the key members of the group (erik, raphael, jack, silvia)
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-32
- Check and grant cvs access to the key members of the group
(erik, raphael, jack, silvia) [on Yves Lafon - due
2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; Topic 6: first
document</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 1. intro</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 2. Use Cases</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 3. Requirements (see
page + types of fragment addressing)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 4. Naming Fragment
(identification)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... # vs ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... details of formal
grammar &amp; semantics</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... TODO interaction
with other standards (SVG, SMIL, ...) and extreme cases</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 5. Retrieving
Fragment</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... HTTP 2-way &amp;
4-way handshake</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... caches/proxies</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... client-side
requirements</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; 3.5 Technologies
Survey</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; who will write initial
chapters?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 5. Raphael</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 4. Jack</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 3.5 Erik</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 3.
Silvia/Raphael</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 2. Silvia</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... 1. Intro ???</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; ... starting up
Raphael/Erik</p><a name="action09" id="action09"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael to start the template
of the document [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-33
- And Raphael to start the template of the document [on Erik
Mannens - due 2008-12-17].</p>
<h3 id="item06">6. AOB</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> let's talk about
implementation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> i can work on
implementation from February<br />
... not before</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> we have a server pretty
independant of encoding format, we can work together</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> on client side, the easiest
thing to do will work on a smil player, and just deal with a
temporal selection</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> will, for example, a
firefox plugin be able to generate good http packets and
communicate with the server ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> why we don't use a
python-url library, or curl ?<br />
... then we are independant of the browser and replicate its
behaviour</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I can talk to the curl
maintainer on the html mailing list, to see whether curl is
doing some syntax checking<br />
... otherwise, we can do that with a wget</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> so our first implementation
will be a shell script on client side</p><a name="action10" id=
"action10"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jack to look at python-url library to
see whether he could implement the logic on client side
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action10</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-34
- Look at python-url library to see whether he could implement
the logic on client side [on Jack Jansen - due
2008-12-17].</p><a name="action11" id="action11"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael to look at curl and/or wget to
see whether the logic could be implemented on client side
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action11</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
find user - Raphael</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; tracknot, who is
here?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; trackbot, who is
here?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, jackjansen,
I don't understand 'trackbot, who is here?'. Please refer to
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc">http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc</a>
for help</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc">http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc</a></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; trackbot,
status</p><a name="action12" id="action12"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to look at curl and/or wget to
see whether the logic could be implemented on client side
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action12">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action12</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-35
- Look at curl and/or wget to see whether the logic could be
implemented on client side [on Raphaël Troncy - due
2008-12-17].</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; ACTION -11</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, bad ACTION
syntax</p>
<p class='phone'>The room thanks IBBT for the brilliant
organization</p>
<p class='phone'>meeting adjourned</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Davy to look at
various container formats what kind of characters they allow to
name their tracks/fragments [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael
organize an informal poll what is the best way of specifying
rectangle [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael
to organize a poll to see whether the quotes around track and id
are optional [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael
to organize an informal poll what is the best separator [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik and Raphael
to start the template of the document [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to describe
why smpte is the only frame accurate one [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jack to look at
python-url library to see whether he could implement the logic on
client side [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action10</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jack to suggest
an exhaustive list of possible values for (temporal) format in
the proposed syntax [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael to look
at curl and/or wget to see whether the logic could be implemented
on client side [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action11</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to look
at curl and/or wget to see whether the logic could be implemented
on client side [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action12">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action12</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to check and
grant cvs access to the key members of the group (erik, raphael,
jack, silvia) [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> yves to propose
by email a good list of units that can be used [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
&nbsp;<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
<address>
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> version 1.133 (<a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
$Date: 2008/12/10 16:24:28 $
</address>
<div class="diagnostics">
<hr />
<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
<pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/...discuss/... discuss/
Succeeded: s/ccaching/caching/
Succeeded: s/and name/and track/
Succeeded: s/download only the sequence and play/download from begin time to the end and play/
Succeeded: s/begin time "separator" end time/begin time "separator" [end time]/
Succeeded: s/text/subtitle/
Succeeded: s/xyzh/xywh/
Succeeded: s/xwwh/xywh/
Succeeded: s/ of 4 (for example)/ (of 4 for example)/
Succeeded: s/space could have [format:]/space could have [unit:]/
Succeeded: s/[unit:]/space=[unit:]/
Succeeded: s/ted/tend/
Succeeded: s/RFC3986/RFC3987/
Succeeded: s/caracters/characters/
Succeeded: s/...)/...) and extreme cases/
Succeeded: s/4./... 4./
Succeeded: s/3. 5/... 3.5/
Found ScribeNick: davy
Found ScribeNick: erik
Found ScribeNick: raphael
Inferring Scribes: davy, erik, raphael
Scribes: davy, erik, raphael
ScribeNicks: davy, erik, raphael
Default Present: +2712841aaaa, Guillaume, +329331aabb, Frank, Davy, Erik, Raphael, Tom, Wim, Jack, Yves, +61.2.801.2.aacc, Silvia
Present: Jack Yves Erik Frank_(canon_observer) Raphael Davy Tom Wim Silvia_(remote)
Regrets: Michael
Agenda: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/SecondF2FAgenda">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/SecondF2FAgenda</a>
Found Date: 10 Dec 2008
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2008/12/10-mediafrag-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: davy erik jack l rapha raphael yves
</pre>[End of <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
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