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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>03 Feb 2010</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html'>
Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>conrad, davy, erik, silvia, thierry, yves, jack</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>davy, raphael, michael</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>erik</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>conrad</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1 Admin</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 03 February
2010</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; scribenick:
conrad</p>
<h3 id="item01">1 Admin</h3>
<p class='phone'>PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 27
January 2009 telecon:</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>silvia</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: to
accept the minutes of the 27 January 2009 telecon</strong></p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-127</p>
<p class='phone'>Thierry/Yves to look for the charter
extension</p>
<p class='phone'>extension has not yet been granted, but should
not be an issue -- just w3 process</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> submission of MTAP SI on
Semantic Multimedia ongoing</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; the extension
should have discussed at last week W3M meeting, but is was
not</p>
<p class='phone'>2. F2F meeting</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; plh said it should
be discussed this afternnoon</p>
<p class='phone'>Draft Agenda: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda</a></p>
<p class='phone'>venue and location are booked by thierry and
erik</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> over the next 2 weeks we
will have to fill in the agend</p>
<p class='phone'>a</p>
<p class='phone'>we have to go to last call in march, there is
a lot to discuss, it will be important</p>
<p class='phone'>there will be 5 there, hopefully the others
can attend via phone</p>
<p class='phone'>3. SPECIFICATION:</p>
<p class='phone'>Raphael to fix the weird character in the spec
document</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; CLOSED: <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0102.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0102.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax: (Yves)</p>
<p class='phone'>Bug in the npt specification:</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Philip:</cite> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Nov/0023.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Nov/0023.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Dom:</cite> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0093.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0093.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> we changed from abnf to
ebnf (?) yves, is your action still valid?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> yes</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> is there an issue with
the change?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> no, i am using abnf for
other things, but i'm sure ebnf shall be similar</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> then we only have the
parsing issues dom mentioned, which are minor</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> the npt definition was not
exactly correct, that was the only thing holding up the
grammar</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> yes, as discussed in
email, just a small change</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> i will look at that before
the f2f</p>
<p class='phone'>(but i will be away next week)</p>
<p class='phone'>3.2 Protocol for URI fragment Resolution in
HTTP</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> any problem with the
changes proposed by Philip?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> no, they clarify things,
they might have made the document structure more complicated.
philip also proposed some changes to document structure but
they make sense</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> i agree</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, i would be against a structure
where normative and non-normative are not separated. I would
like them to be clearly spaced</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> we should put an overview
table at the end of the document of what is normative and
informative, rather than spreading it through the document.
most of it is obvious, but it is important to put the info in
one place</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, the nice thing about a table is
that if it indexes all the normative stuff, you can use it to
find what you actually need</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, not sure i like the idea that it
should be clear from the wording, because then in non-normative
text you have to refrain from using SHOULD, MUST etc.</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, it should be clear from the layout
which is which</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, comments in-line about what is
normative is not useful</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, in SMIL spec, we put in text
markers for people who use screen readers etc. (as well as
colors)</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, in the published document there
are only text markers -- the visual markers were not
included</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, make a note now, put these in if we
come to committee draft</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, the xml format we use has a way to
distinguish paragraphs, so if we use that we can modify the
layout in stylesheet</p>
<p class='phone'>thierry, distinguish in screen and aural?</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, just use the xml to make a clear
distinction between normative and informative text</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-SMIL3-20081201/smil-structure.html">
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-SMIL3-20081201/smil-structure.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>thierry:</cite> we should put a div with
class="normative" or class="informative"</p><a name="action01"
id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to mark up the spec with
normative and informative classes [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-134
- Mark up the spec with normative and informative classes [on
Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>thierry:</cite> do we also want to have
text saying "this section is normative"?</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, that can be part of the style</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, i guess the table is already in the
document, but a table at the end with a reference to the
normative parts would be nice</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>ACTION-123:</cite> Yves to come up with
ABNF for header syntax</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-123 Come up
with ABNF for header syntax notes added</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> action 133 is ongoing</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> re: action 123, need to
find the proposal from the archives</p>
<p class='phone'>Review of the complete Section 5.2.1 for group
approval</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; postponed (we have
not all yet reviewed it)</p>
<p class='phone'>erik, this should be done before the f2f</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i have read it and am
happy with it, apart from minor issues in the ebnf; dom also
suggested to put the ebnf syntax together in one place; maybe
we should just repeat it all at the end</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, he made a few changes to make it
easier to read, along the lines of the html5 spec</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i'm happy with what he's
done, i don't have any issues</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> ok, tbc</p>
<p class='phone'>3.3 Rendering of Media Fragments URI in
UA:</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-130</p>
<p class='phone'>Silvia to draft a new subsection in the
Section 5 regarding the rendering in the UI of media fragments,
at least for the temporal dimension</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i sent an email just
before this meeting<br />
... i've put a paragraph into section 5.1.4</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>silvia</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-overview-interpretation">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-overview-interpretation</a></p>
<p class='phone'>so basically the action is done</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> davy, i've made a mention
of spatial,track dimensions</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>davy:</cite> ok, i'll work over that
too</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, i really like silvia's suggestion,
but we should make sure that in the protocol we have enough
detail to actually implement it</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, which touches on issue 5, similar
to silvia's note about the temporal domain, but in the spatial
domain</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, we should ensure that the server
provides any information such as width, height etc. so that
clipping can be implemented client-side</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, we need to specify these things for
each dimension, please add a paragraph</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, also at the end of section 5.1.4,
a very simple graphic of a timeline of a video playing would be
handy to help with understanding the intention</p>
<p class='phone'>close action-130</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-130 Draft a
new subsection in the Section 5 regarding the rendering in the
UI of media fragments, at least for the temporal dimension
closed</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> davy,erik to extend section 5
regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
find user - davy,erik</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> erik to extend section 5 regarding
spatial and track dimension [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-135
- Extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [on
Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].</p><a name="action04" id=
"action04"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to create a diagram of video
timeline to explain temporal dimension [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-136
- Create a diagram of video timeline to explain temporal
dimension [on Davy Van Deursen - due 2010-02-10].</p><a name=
"action05" id="action05"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to check that 5.1.4 is
implementable using the protocol [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-137
- Check that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol [on Jack
Jansen - due 2010-02-10].</p>
<p class='phone'>3.4 Discovery of 'Track' and 'Named'
fragments:</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> nothing to discuss yet,
this is being worked on in ogg</p>
<p class='phone'>3.4, 3.5 to be discussed later on</p>
<p class='phone'>5. TEST CASES: (Michael)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> i'm in favour of making
next phone conf all about test cases, for a whole hour</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, last week we mentioned that the foms
people would be keen to have an indication on which sections
are fairly ready, and my suggestion was that section 5.2.1 can
be implemented</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; the only indication of
stability is publishing LC or CR</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>conrad:</cite> perhaps we don't need to
specify that the mechanism for handling client-side fragments
involves http byte-range requests: just specify that "if the
client can already seek over the network, honor this fragment
syntax"</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, last week we decided that rather than
pulling out parts of the document which are stable, we simply
mark within the document how mature each part of the document
is, so implementers can go ahead</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, whereas last call etc. is really for
the whole document; we don't want to hold back implementers</p>
<p class='phone'>Yves, the parts which are unstable may lead to
changes in the parts we think are stable now</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, unlikely as that section is really
trivial</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, that section has very little value
with out parts of chapters 3, 4</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, i like the sentiment about
allowing implementers to start implementing stuff, but ...</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, yes, but we have already been through
section 3 substantially, any changes will be minor</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, i probably agree, but then even if
we mark sections as "stable" we should specify that it may
change anyway. we don't want to be editing for all eternity
like the whatwg is doing</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, we should start having
implementations. we are really close to having the temporal
stuff finalized, even though the headers etc. may still be
under discussion</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, if we keep working on the spec without
any implementations, it's not going to move ahead in a
reasonable amount of time</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, if we mark these things as not
"stable/unstable" but "reaonsably stable, mature" etc. that is
fine with me</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, "ready for test implementations" would
be a useful indication</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> fine by me too</p>
<p class='phone'>4. ISSUES</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; conrad, I'd like
a note "for test implementation" or something.</p>
<p class='phone'>issue-4.1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> postpone non-active
issues</p>
<p class='phone'>5. TEST CASES</p>
<p class='phone'>jackjansen, is a phone conference the best
medium for discussing details of test cases?</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, i agree -- we should prepare the group
for the meeting re: test cases, but it is up to michael</p>
<p class='phone'>silvia, whether we prepare for the test cases
next week or not, we should at least talk about it then</p>
<p class='phone'>6. IMPLEMENTATION:</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> any news?</p>
<p class='phone'>none</p>
<p class='phone'>all ongoing</p>
<p class='phone'>7. AOB</p>
<p class='phone'>none</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to create a
diagram of video timeline to explain temporal dimension [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy,erik to
extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> erik to extend
section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to mark up
the spec with normative and informative classes [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to check
that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />
&nbsp;<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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$Date: 2010/02/03 11:01:13 $
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<pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/davy/thierry/
Found ScribeNick: conrad
Inferring Scribes: conrad
Present: conrad davy erik silvia thierry yves jack
Regrets: davy raphael michael
Agenda: <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html</a>
Found Date: 03 Feb 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
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People with action items: davy erik jack
WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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