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676 lines
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676 lines
24 KiB
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
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<meta name="generator" content=
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<title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 21 Apr
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2010</title>
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<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
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"48" width="72" /></a></p>
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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
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<h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>
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<h2>21 Apr 2010</h2>
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<p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-irc">IRC
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log</a></p>
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<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
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<div class="intro">
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<dl>
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<dt>Present</dt>
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<dd>MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb,
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yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck</dd>
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<dt>Regrets</dt>
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<dt>Chair</dt>
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<dd>Harry</dd>
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<dt>Scribe</dt>
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<dd>Dan</dd>
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</dl>
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</div>
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<h2>Contents</h2>
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<ul>
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<li>
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<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
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<ol>
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<li><a href="#item01">Action reminders</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item02">request from Jeff.</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item03">Proposals for lightweight process
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changes</a></li>
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</ol>
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</li>
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<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
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</ul>
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<hr />
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<div class="meeting">
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 21 April
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2010</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>MacTed</cite>> but why don't you
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see anyone on channel?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>MacTed</cite>> hhalpin - I've told
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trackbot to start the meeting, and RRSAgent and Zakim are doing
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their things ... except that Zakim doesn't seem to see anyone
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on channel, only on the phone...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Hi all.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> can hear you</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> trackbot, start
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meeting</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Meeting: Social
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Web Incubator Group Teleconference</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 21 April
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2010</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Can't chair - but could
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scribe.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Scribe: Dan</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> ScribeNick: DKA</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Jeff Jaffee is very
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interested in [process changes?] in w3c. Hoping we can come to
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consensus on some of these issues.</p>
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<p class='phone'>Harry can you share the link?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> IP caller?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>yoshiaki</cite>> +yoshiaki; got
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it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Approve
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minutes?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> +1 approve</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'>+1</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Minutes from April
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14th approved</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> next week should we cancel
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the meeting (because of www2010)?</p>
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<p class='phone'>+1 for canceling</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> i could be here</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> -1 canceling</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>AnitaD</cite>> -1 I cant make
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it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> Next meeting
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cancelled</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> But resume as
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normal with policy language discussions and information
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cards</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>yoshiaki</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> for the first
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Wednesday in May</p>
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<p class='phone'>Next meeting - may 5th</p>
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<h3 id="item01">Action reminders</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> i think the first wed
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in May is the 5th</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Please check all your
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actions [and report on status to the mailing list]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open">
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http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open</a></p>
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<h3 id="item02">request from Jeff.</h3>
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<h3 id="item03">Proposals for lightweight process changes</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>hhalpin</cite>> scribenick:
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hhalpin</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> there is a proposal called
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W3C outpost thought up by DKA<br />
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... and Robin Berjon</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: Jeff would like
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to get approval for some proposals of opening up W3c at next
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TPAc (in November).</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: To be discussed
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at www2010.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> That is the outposts
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proposal.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Most of the work done
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by Robin, to be clear.</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> How can W3C help these
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efforts?<br />
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... efforts like OMB, Salmon Protocol, how can we help these
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efforts<br />
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... pose the question that way, as opposed to why these efforts
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aren't happening at W3C<br />
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... which is different than saying what's the problem, W3C is
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the answer<br />
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... the point of this proposal<br />
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... is for the W3C to provide tools and basic templates<br />
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... high quality tools like issue tracking, actions, IRC
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channels, stuff like trackbot<br />
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... and provide this as a kind of package with minimal staff
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impact<br />
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... provide some kind of IPR for efforts<br />
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... often the intention is to release it royalty-free, but
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there's issues with understanding tricky legal issues re
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copyright, open source<br />
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... so W3C could provide these tools and processes<br />
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... so that fledgling efforts could use them<br />
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... with minimal effort, like making the XG process even
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easier<br />
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... so we don't even have W3C members at all.<br />
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... just one W3C member as a suggestor, not even a
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sponsor<br />
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... the Outpost proposal is to see how W3C proposal could help
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these efforts around<br />
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... so we had this discussion at the AC meeting.<br />
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... so we had another discussion about how W3C standards can be
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fed to ISO groups<br />
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... and so make them "real" standards in the very formal sense
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of the word<br />
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... as W3C standards are actually recommendations<br />
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... so the point is at least 2 individuals from 2 different
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companies<br />
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... can then make a roadmap between that kind of work and ISO
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standardization<br />
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... in helping to bridge that gap.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: any
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questions?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> good idea</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>MacTed</cite>> definitely good
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idea</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>yoshiaki</cite>> good idea</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> good idea
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indeed</p>
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<p class='phone'>Community Group?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: 2 points - good
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idea, I worry about the name "outposts" - sounds like w3c
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colonising... rather than helping people.</p>
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<p class='phone'>ah, an embassy in another realm</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> to be the opposite of
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colonization<br />
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... it should have a different identity<br />
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... different website<br />
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... to prevent developers etc. from being alienated<br />
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... including academic sheen<br />
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... the point of the name is to sound cool</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> We need a better
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communication<br />
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... W3C standards aren't really standards, they're
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Recommendations<br />
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... origins were in trying to unify and stop failure of
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interoperability<br />
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... the browser wars</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: I think that's
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more likely to happen with a better communications effort. As
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you say, W3C standards aren't really standards. Their origins
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were in efforts to aid interoperability.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: as things have
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been evolving, they are shifting towards forward thinking...
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that's a different thing?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: how could the
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suggestion be advertised differently?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: Opening
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processes is definitely useful. Don't know about "outposts" as
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a brand. Most of the summary sounds likes a win.</p>
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<p class='phone'>W3C Frontier?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: ...but in the
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same space, creating a new space doesn't necessarily changes
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the perception about w3c. If there are perceptions against w3c
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then let's change that. Maybe "W3C Frontier" would make more
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sense?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: idea makes sense
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to me. I don't like the word "frontier" either.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> (I like "frontier" as
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well... :) )</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: I had a
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conversation with Facebook. Asked them - why are you using
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things like google groups - maybe google isn't a neutral 3rd
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party? The response I got: we would be happy to use a w3c list
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but [too difficult].</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: another point
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made by fb - the login. If you use a google group, most people
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have a google account so easy to log in...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> [low friction]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> I agree</p>
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<p class='phone'>ah I see!</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> variant: I have
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one google account, and people keep inviting me to google docs
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on another address, which I do not want to register in my
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google account</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: I have 2 google
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accounts - it's very difficult to manage that in that
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situation...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> openID....</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> but I agree: this
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makes it easier for many people</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> foaf+ssl ?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> yes to both :)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: different
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issues in different places... If the pain they're trying to
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solve is - having an account in w3c space - you've got to have
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some kind of account if there's going to be moderation...</p>
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<p class='phone'>add easy comments via a webform.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: Google groups
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also uses a blog-like interface where you can add comments very
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easily...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: That's an
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interface issue - we could do the same ...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> im not sure its that
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appealing</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: any other
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comments on outposts or on opening up w3c?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: Other
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comments...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> if i have to ask
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someone if they know what w3c is, and they answer 'no' there is
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little point in explaining</p>
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<p class='phone'>perceived formality of many things?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: One offputting
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thing about w3c is the perceived formality - the perceived
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formal process which can be very offputting if you don't know
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what it is.</p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/Submission/">http://www.w3.org/Submission/</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: one of the other
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issues that has been made. Are people familiar with the w3c
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member submission process?</p>
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<p class='phone'>Public Submissions process?</p>
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<p class='phone'>Which takes submissions from the general
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public</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: If you make a
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spec - you can submit it to w3c as a member submission but only
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if you are a member. Another idea is a "public submission
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process" which takes submissions from the general public.</p>
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<p class='phone'>a separate index and formatting from actual
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member submissions and Rec-track work</p>
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<p class='phone'>get a Team comment</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: would allow
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people who already developed something to submit...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: as the web has
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grown so exponentially it's difficult for Tim [or anyone else}
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to know what's going on everywhere. So this is one way to allow
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suggestions from all over...</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: That seems like
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a reinvention of rfc...</p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html">http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>is basically patent policy</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: it is, but with
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a difference - difference between ietf and w3c is patent
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policy.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> honestly, IMHO, this
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sounds more like a hammer looking for a nail than a nail that
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needs a hammer</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> "W3C: Bringing hammers
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and nails together since 1992"</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> heh</p>
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<p class='phone'>levels of membership?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: perhaps there's
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a question of levels of membership.</p>
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<p class='phone'>no, besides invited experts</p>
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<p class='phone'>precisely, and jeff himself is interested in
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this space now</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Let's revisit the reasons
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we're interested in.<br />
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... we need to be really careful about saying that the answer
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must be W3C<br />
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... so whether or not these assets that W3C brings to the
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table<br />
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... can make these benefits available to fledgling efforts who
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think<br />
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... they may not need the level of W3C process in
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collaboration<br />
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... but notice if they don't IP</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> i agree</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that's why I think a new
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website, a brand, will make a real difference.<br />
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... the benefit will only be realized if there is a new staff
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role is an evangelist type role<br />
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... that gets into these community</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> amen!</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that is aware and
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participates of these community efforts<br />
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... and that brings the benefits and tools to these
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efforts<br />
|
|
... rather than say we're w3c, look at our great stuff w3c.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: some of these
|
|
efforts like activity streams or portable contacts would say
|
|
"we're not in the wild- we already have uptake" but at the same
|
|
point, they might need to start thinking about IP issues...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: some of these
|
|
social web efforts are fairly mature though the big problem of
|
|
distributed mature social networks is far from solved...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>DKA by suggestion do you basically kinda mean
|
|
liason?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: W3C doesn't have
|
|
liaisons with web 2.0 social stuff...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> sounds like it</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: I'm becoming
|
|
less clear on what the goal is... W3C has these great tools and
|
|
we want to make them available... But we actually want to use
|
|
them to lure you in... and there is only dues-paying
|
|
membership...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: Big benefit of
|
|
w3c is the royalty-free patent policy. Meta-level goal is to
|
|
make sure that these standards are open and royalty-free.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>melvster</cite>> +1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> +1 on patent policy
|
|
being a key benefit</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: that's why w3c
|
|
has to be a member organization.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: you have to have
|
|
members who have companies who have patents but a lot of the
|
|
creativity comes from the community groups...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> this doesnt sounds
|
|
like a great idea to me</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> free membership hasn't been
|
|
taken off the table<br />
|
|
... there is an argument that it would bring funding into the
|
|
organization<br />
|
|
... although others worry it may take away the funding<br />
|
|
... if there was a free category you'd have more agreement</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: you could
|
|
imagine some slightly re-jigged invited expert status...
|
|
Invited experts should not work for companies who have parents
|
|
in that area...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> without funding there
|
|
is more work with less money</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: I'm not saying
|
|
that's not true but by that fact it kind of derails this other
|
|
effort. You have to be able to declare patent-free whatever
|
|
your contributions are. In order to do that you have to be
|
|
working for an entity that will declare it for you or declare
|
|
you free. There are legal costs...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: the conflict
|
|
only exists when you work for a company that may have patents
|
|
in that area...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>there's provisional patents as well :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: There's all
|
|
kind of aspects - employment contract law, patent law, etc...
|
|
Does lend weight to "there has to be a degree of corporate
|
|
involvement and therefore dues to support that" but that leads
|
|
us back to where we are today...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> harry is breaking
|
|
up</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> pushback from people in the
|
|
AAC<br />
|
|
... people who are not really exposed to community driven spec
|
|
development<br />
|
|
... questioning from folks who had just never heard of the
|
|
idea<br />
|
|
... I don't want to be mean, but I think we can discount
|
|
that.<br />
|
|
... since it wasn't grounded in the reality we're trying to
|
|
address here<br />
|
|
... so overall feedback is good<br />
|
|
... so there's a level of education we'll have to do to the
|
|
Advisory Committee<br />
|
|
... otherwise we'll get a lot of pushback from the ac-list</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: we could at
|
|
least endorse modulo name changes the w3c outposts
|
|
proposal...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> not clear.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: I couldn't
|
|
endorse it in it's current state. The goals it's trying to
|
|
achieve are not clear and how it means to achieve them are not
|
|
clear.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> what i heard today
|
|
made me all sad. that is my best summation</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>rreck:</cite> from a business-side it's
|
|
unclear if we can get more resources to supplement more
|
|
work<br />
|
|
... so we don't want to degrade participation in what W3C
|
|
has.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> Harry: the outposts
|
|
proposal would involve extra resources. The [risk we are trying
|
|
to mitigate</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> ...] is that "open
|
|
standards" aren't really open. If they don't have a [proven</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> ...] patent policy then
|
|
there could be a problem for businesses who are trying to
|
|
deploy these standards in the future.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>I do agree we are techies talking to techies,
|
|
but then we often have a good grasp of what's going on in the
|
|
field :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> MacTed: We are talking
|
|
about techies talking to techies - bunch of random guys out
|
|
there working for somebody who may not have a claim on what
|
|
they're doing. What we want to have happen is.</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> ... for somebody say "I
|
|
agree I am not going to charge royalties"...</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> s/adjourn//</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>danbri</cite>> i have no audio
|
|
out</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> ;lkasads 'k;</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>danbri</cite>> just nice to hear
|
|
y'voices ;)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> i like and agree with
|
|
harry's point</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>DKA</cite>> s/ajourn/adjourn/</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> last oen</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>rreck</cite>> +1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Meeting Adjourned</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>trackbot, end meeting</p>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
|
|
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
|
|
[End of minutes]<br />
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<address>
|
|
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
|
|
scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
|
|
$Date: 2010/04/21 16:09:58 $
|
|
</address>
|
|
|
|
<div class="diagnostics">
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
|
|
before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
|
|
<pre>
|
|
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
|
|
Check for newer version at <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>
|
|
|
|
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
|
|
|
|
FAILED: s/adjourn//
|
|
FAILED: s/ajourn/adjourn/
|
|
Found Scribe: Dan
|
|
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Dan> ...
|
|
Found ScribeNick: DKA
|
|
Found ScribeNick: hhalpin
|
|
ScribeNicks: DKA, hhalpin
|
|
Default Present: MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb, yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck
|
|
Present: MacTed +95177aaaa pchampin DKA +049172247aabb yoshiaki melvster Anita hhalpin rreck
|
|
Found Date: 21 Apr 2010
|
|
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a>
|
|
People with action items:
|
|
|
|
</pre>[End of <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
|
|
scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
|
|
</div>
|
|
</body>
|
|
</html>
|