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478 lines
17 KiB
478 lines
17 KiB
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
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<head>
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<meta name="generator" content=
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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 24 Nov
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2010</title>
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<body>
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<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
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"48" width="72" /></a></p>
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
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<h2>24 Nov 2010</h2>
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<p><a href=
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'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0033.html'>
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Agenda</a></p>
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<p>See also: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
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<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
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<div class="intro">
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<dl>
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<dt>Present</dt>
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<dd>Yves, Raphael, Thomas, Silvia, Philip_(irc)</dd>
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<dt>Regrets</dt>
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<dd>davy, eric</dd>
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<dt>Chair</dt>
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<dd>Raphael</dd>
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<dt>Scribe</dt>
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<dd>Raphael</dd>
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</dl>
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</div>
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<h2>Contents</h2>
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<ul>
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<li>
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<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
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<ol>
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<li><a href="#item01">1. Admin</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item02">Discuss HTML5 bug</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item03">3. Media Fragment
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Specification</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item04">4. Use Cases and
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Requirements</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item05">5. AOB</a></li>
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</ol>
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</li>
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<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
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</ul>
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<hr />
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<div class="meeting">
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 24 November
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2010</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> Scribe: Raphael</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribenick:
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raphael</p>
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<h3 id="item01">1. Admin</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'>Propose to accept the minutes of last telecon:
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<a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>+1</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'>minutes accepted</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'>ACTION-183?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-183 --
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Raphaël Troncy to send reminders to all relevant groups -- due
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2010-09-15 -- OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/183">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/183</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>close ACTION-183</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-183 Send
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reminders to all relevant groups closed</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I did send an email to
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whatwg and html5<br />
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... but the mail to the html5 mailing list didn't get
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through<br />
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... subscription problem</p>
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<p class='phone'>Silvia, could you please forward my email to
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the HTML5 mailing list?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> oh, did it not go
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through?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> will do</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> I have also contacted
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Chris Double, Frank Olivier and Eric Carlson to get more
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reviews<br />
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... and the CSS working group regarding the bug <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10723">http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10723</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>No, silvia, my mail went through the whatwg
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mailing list but NOT the html5 one</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> ok</p>
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<h3 id="item02">Discuss HTML5 bug</h3>
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<p class='phone'><cite>See:</cite> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10723">http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10723</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>Question is what we should do since this bug
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has been closed by Ian</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> If he's wrong, we
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should explain why.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think we need to
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propose an actual spec change</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> That will also do
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fine</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> then there is
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something to discuss</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> for images, if the cropping
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is the default rendering behavior, it should be specified in
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our spec<br />
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... for video and audio, since there is more controls from the
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HTML5 spec, if the default behavior is highlighting, then it
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could be specified in HTML5</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> (for time
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dimension)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> text about controls:
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<a href=
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"http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#attr-media-controls">
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http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#attr-media-controls</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> silvia, is there in html5,
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something that says how external controls are displayed for
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video?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> media-controls should
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know how to interact with a fragment</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> there is only
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recommendations</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> Yes, I agree - there
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should be recommendations on what to display for a
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<video> or <audio> element that has a media
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fragment URI - in particular since we may recommend a UI
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change</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> but we need to
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formulate that recommendation</p>
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<p class='phone'>I agree Silvia</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> for everything linked
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only to the content, the content has to define the behaviour,
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for external artefacts, like video controls, as they are part
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(even informally) of html5, somehting need to be in the
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spec</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1 to Silvia</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> and we need to do
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this differently for temporal to spatial fragments</p>
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<p class='phone'>Problem is also process: bug is closed. Should
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we escalate it? Or open a new one for temporal dimension since
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we agree on the space dimension</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> isnt part of ian's
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point that there are besides cropping no concrete use cases?
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only skimmed very rapidly, so might've misread</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I'm not 100% sure
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about process (maybe Philip knows better), but I think we may
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be able to reopen the bug with new information</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> aryeh's</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> silvia, I think so
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too, we need clarification of the intent, and proposed text, as
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currently, Ian is perfectly right in closing this bug</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I agree</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we haven't provided
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any answers to the questions raised in the bug</p>
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<p class='phone'>Yes, Thomas is discussing the non-cropping use
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case for spatial region</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> the bug was not
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registered with a particular focus on spatial fragments - it
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was generic for media fragment uris</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we need to have
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changes at least on how the control display should change and
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also how the scroll-to-fragid should be done</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> <a href=
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"http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#scroll-to-fragid">http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#scroll-to-fragid</a></p><a name="action01"
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id="action01"></a>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
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<strong>ACTION:</strong> silvia to draft the paragraph that the
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group will propose to HTML5 regarding how the control of media
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fragment URI should be done [recorded in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-202
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- Draft the paragraph that the group will propose to HTML5
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regarding how the control of media fragment URI should be done
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[on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-12-01].</p>
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<h3 id="item03">3. Media Fragment Specification</h3>
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<p class='phone'>close ACTION-195</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-195 Add a
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paragraph in the section 7.1 to specify that video, audio, img
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or any href is all treated similarly (range request issued when
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facing a media fragment) closed</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> contentious issue, in
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the case of a media fragment URI in a very particular context,
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i.e. in the audio or video element, AND that media fragment URI
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looks like a temporal fragment<br />
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... then browser SHOULD?/COULD? issue a range request in a
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first place</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> MAY</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> i.e. what we called the
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optimistic processing of media fragments<br />
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... if the server ack the fact the resource is a video, then it
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uses the recipe "Server mapped byte ranges" (section
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5.1.2)<br />
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... if the server realized that the resource is not a video,
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then it ignores the Range header</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> in this case MAY
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sounds too defensive</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> MAY sounds defensive,
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but it's the case for all optimisations that are approaching
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crossing the layers ;)</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> anytime a URI looks like
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a #t= but only if this is the value of the href attibute of
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<video>/<audio> or the src attribute of the
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<source> element</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> well, Apple implements
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the <video> element so that the value could also be a m3u
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playlist, not a media element</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> m3u8</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> ok, in that case, time
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range won't apply and you will get the whole thing</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> hence the "optimistic
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optimization" (and the MAY)</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I'm curious what will
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happen if the video element point to a m3u8 resource in a
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browser that is not Safari</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> <a href=
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"http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#technotes/tn2010/tn2224.html">
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http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#technotes/tn2010/tn2224.html</a>
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<- example</p>
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<p class='phone'>foolip, do you have an opinion on this
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discussion?</p>
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<p class='phone'>ACTION-191?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-191 -- Yves
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Lafon to update the production rules of the time dimension with
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the npt format for making the hours optional -- due 2010-11-08
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-- OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/191">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/191</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>ACTION-173?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-173 -- Yves
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Lafon to produce the code that will check the grammar of both
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the URI syntax and the Headers syntax -- due 2010-06-22 --
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OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/173">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/173</a></p>
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<h3 id="item04">4. Use Cases and Requirements</h3>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> have you collected
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all the issues that could be added to the use cases?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we have Ericson people
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using media fragment URI for video chat, Thomas using the spec
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in SemWebVid, HTTP streaming that might use it too<br />
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... I wonder if at some point we should not update the UC note
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with these initiatives<br />
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... silvia, so far I'm only keeping track of the initiatives,
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and I think we should report them as well as the issues in the
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document later on</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Thomas:</cite> currently I'm using
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simple media fragment to point to temporal sequences of
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video<br />
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... + content negotiation to get either the RDF annotation of
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the sequence (e.g. closed caption) or the video bits<br />
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... the overall vision is that search results could include
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media fragments URI pointing to sequences that are relevant for
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a video search<br />
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... use case of finding people and highlighting faces with
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media fragments URI, so something more highlighting than
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cropping</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> I think you should bring
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this to the whatwg mailing list</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Thomas:</cite> concerned about the too
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large traffic of this list</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> silvia, maybe you
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could ping me a link to the thread, and i could jump in</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> I understand, then make
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sure to include this in our planned reply to the html5
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group<br />
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... are you aware of popcorn.js that does similar things that
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what you intend to do</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Thomas:</cite> there is also a couple of
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BBC projects that do similar things, twitter streams displayed
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in parallel of programs<br />
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... also people in DERI working on this<br />
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... annotating conference media streams</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> so you agree with the
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principle of reporting all these experiments in our UC note at
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some point?</p>
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<h3 id="item05">5. AOB</h3>
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<p class='phone'>none</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> tomayac, you might
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want to read this thread: <a href=
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"http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-August/027581.html">
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http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-August/027581.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> thanks, silvia</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> can i ask an, erm,
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stupid question: if you say html5, do you say whatwg, or
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w3c?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> tomayac, same same,
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whatever comes up first in your favorite search engine :)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> wikipedia ;-)</p>
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<p class='phone'>great answer thomas</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> the second one should be
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W3C</p>
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<p class='phone'>:-)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> oh, in the context
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of <audio>, <video>, I think it's possible to send
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a range request without knowing the MIME type, but not really
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sane from a purity point of view. In any case I don't see it
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happening because the only benefit is one less round-trip, and
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only works with specialized servers</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I don't think the
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benefit is tangible enough that browsers or servers would
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bother implementing it.</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> it will depend on big
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content provider interested or not in that (to reduce the
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load)</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> right, should any
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browser or provider show any kind of interest in it I could of
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course reconsider</p>
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<p class='phone'>you represent ONE browser, and I'm talking to
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provider, such as Dailymotion, who could be interested ... so
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it might be worth considering at some point</p>
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</div>
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<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
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Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
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<strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> silvia to draft
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the paragraph that the group will propose to HTML5 regarding how
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the control of media fragment URI should be [recorded in <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
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<br />
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[End of minutes]<br />
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<hr />
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<address>
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
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scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
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"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
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$Date: 2010/11/24 11:28:45 $
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</address>
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<div class="diagnostics"></div>
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</body>
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</html>
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