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657 lines
23 KiB
657 lines
23 KiB
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2010</title>
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<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
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"48" width="72" /></a></p>
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
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<h2>23 Jun 2010</h2>
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<p><a href=
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'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jun/0052.html'>
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Agenda</a></p>
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<p>See also: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
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<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
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<div class="intro">
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<dl>
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<dt>Present</dt>
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<dd>Raphael, Silvia, Michael, Yves, Jack, Davy, Erik</dd>
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<dt>Regrets</dt>
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<dd>Conrad</dd>
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<dt>Chair</dt>
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<dd>Raphael/Erik</dd>
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<dt>Scribe</dt>
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<dd>raphael</dd>
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</dl>
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</div>
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<h2>Contents</h2>
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<ul>
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<li>
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<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
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<ol>
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<li><a href="#item01">1. Admin</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item02">2. Follow up of the ACTIONS</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item03">3. Review of the whole
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document</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item04">4. ISSUE-17</a></li>
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<li><a href="#item05">5. AOB</a></li>
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</ol>
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</li>
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<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
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</ul>
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<hr />
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<div class="meeting">
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='phone'></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 23 June
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2010</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> Agenda: <a href=
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"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jun/0052.html">
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jun/0052.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribe: raphael</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribenick:
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raphael</p>
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<h3 id="item01">1. Admin</h3>
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<p class='phone'>PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 6th F2F
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meeting</p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/15-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/15-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> `+1</p>
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<p class='phone'><a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>+1</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +1</p>
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<p class='phone'>Minutes are accepted</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> +1</p>
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<h3 id="item02">2. Follow up of the ACTIONS</h3>
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<p class='phone'>ACTION-174?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-174 -- Yves
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Lafon to produce the common syntax block -- due 2010-06-22 --
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OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/174">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/174</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>close ACTION-174</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-174 Produce
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the common syntax block closed</p>
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<p class='phone'>From Silvia:</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> Section 4.1 has the
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following bit of ABNF:</p>
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<p class='phone'>namevalues = namevalue *( "&" namevalue
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)</p>
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<p class='phone'>namevalue = name [ "=" value ]</p>
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<p class='phone'>name = fragment - "&" - "="</p>
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<p class='phone'>value = fragment - "&"</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> actually, we should remove
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this block<br />
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... this section is both invalid and un-needed<br />
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... so the whole group agrees that this section should be
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removed</p>
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<h3 id="item03">3. Review of the whole document</h3>
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<p class='phone'>ACTION-178?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-178 --
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Silvia Pfeiffer to review the complete document, remove
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unnecessary editorial notes before publication -- due
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2010-06-23 -- OPEN</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/178">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/178</a></p>
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<p class='phone'>close ACTION-178</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-178 Review
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the complete document, remove unnecessary editorial notes
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before publication closed</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> what do we say about
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RTSP processing?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> for LC we should not detail
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the processing of this<br />
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... good to mention that the syntax is generic<br />
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... and not only for HTTP</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +q</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> the messages that go over
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the protocol is protocol dependant</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> Note that we have a
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description on our wiki about RTSP: <a href=
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"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UA_Server_RTSP_Communication">
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http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UA_Server_RTSP_Communication</a></p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> what we can do is to say
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how media fragments URI syntax can be mapped to RTSP
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messages<br />
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... but don't say how, since we don't have time</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> adding "This
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specification is not defining the protocol aspect of RTSP
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handling of media-fragment."</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> we could just re-use this
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wiki page and adapt it to the latest syntax</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> problem is that we will
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need to test this through implementation</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +q</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> while a WG note would not
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need to be tested</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> but we have an
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implementation of this!</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> I know people who also
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wants to have an implementation ... so it must not be
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difficult</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I think RTSP is useful ...
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but I suggest to have it in another document<br />
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... but I want to speed up the process<br />
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... so I prefer to have another document</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> if we think it is
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hard to include RTSP after LC, I think it would make more sense
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to include it now</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I think it is a good idea
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to put it into another document<br />
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... let me explain why it is a bad idea to include RTSP
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handling at *this* stage<br />
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... the fact that we have one working implementation does not
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mean we understand fully the mechanism</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> RTSP has been
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developed with the fragment functionality as part of the
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protocol</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> except if Davy ensures he
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got all issues fixed</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> I'm also in favor of
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putting this into another document ... and take our time to
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check how it works</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> how hard is it to
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include this later into the document then, when we make it a
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separate document now?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> why would it delay
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the LC?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> no, not to remove it
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later - to update it later with more information</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> delay the LC as we
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would need to review it</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> I am not happy in
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adding at the last minute something as big as that without
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_any_ review before</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> and reviewing
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introduces delays</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we don't know
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everything about caching right now either - there will be more
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updates necessary</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> so, if it is easy to
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add things later, I am fine</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> +1 to Silvia</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> but if that would be
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a problem, I object to making it a separate document, because
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we are ripping apart where ppl can find information about media
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fragments</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> why?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I would need to tell
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ppl: find the spec of URI fragments here, but how to use it
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with rtsp in this other doc</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> if someone want to use
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mediafrag in protocol 'bar' later on does it mean that we will
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have to revise our doc to add this new protocol?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> we can include it and
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ask the community for feedback</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> no silvia, the rtsp
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spec will refer to the uri syntax one</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> it's not like rtsp
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is a new protocol</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> we expect people to be
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smart enough to understand what they read no?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> Yves: it's still 2
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docs</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> not at LC stage, you're
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supposed to have scope the spec</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> and?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> do we want to merge
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rfc2616 and 3987 as well in our doc?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> this discussion is
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procedural<br />
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... we all agree we will like to have rtsp in the spec<br />
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... the question is whether adding it now, add a cost of 2
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months we don't have!<br />
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... does it give us enough benefits ?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> what is wrong of adding it
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now, few days of copy-pasting<br />
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... and review it during LC</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I agree</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> it also gives ppl
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from that community a need to review it</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> it is not healthy to add
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things not which hasn't been reviewed<br />
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... LC should have been published 6 months ago</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> do we want to be LCWD asap
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or do we want to cover RTSP?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> the second document is not
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that important ... since under my understanding, the problem of
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implementing with RTSP is trivial<br />
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... and if it turns to not be trivial, then it will fit a 2.0
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version of the spec</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> again +1 to Silvia</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> but if if is trivial,
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then why not including it now in the document</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> what I have said is that
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with *my* understanding, it is trivial<br />
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... but I might be very wrong</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> problem is that you will
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not trust a note<br />
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... and this is pushing people of our spec<br />
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... i'm unhappy in splitting the document into multiple
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docs</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> looking at the
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charter<br />
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... "The Group will focus on developing a mechanism to uniquely
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identify a temporal fragment within an audio or video object,
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that is independent of the underlying audio or video codec in
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use, and will also investigate the delivery of the requested
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resource to allow full or partial media retrieval using at
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least the HTTP protocol. "</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> zaim, mute me</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> do we really need to
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understand all the bits of the spec?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> I fully agree with what
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Silvia has said</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> looking at our traffic on
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our mailing list, not that many emails about rtsp<br />
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... we haven't received enough attention and review on this
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point</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> same point as
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yves</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> rtsp got less review
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because it was much simpler and needed no discussion</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> the wiki page has never
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been included in the doc so that might explain the lack of
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attention</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> having everything in one
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doc is silly anyway, even html5 is slowly moving away from
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this<br />
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... I don't see studies that people will not look at 2
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documents</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> this is a problem of
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compactness</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> proposal: could we
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have a few days of review for the rtsp section and then make
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the decision?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> by when do we need
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to make the decision to move the doc to LC?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> the documents is a
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workaround solution</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> one more week should
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be enough to learn more about rtsp and make a decision either
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way</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> the problem is not looking
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at our wiki page which is ok<br />
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... the problem is looking at the rtsp spec<br />
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... and make sure we are not saying stupid things</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think you can read
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the rtsp spec within an hour, honestly</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I would look at
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it</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> yes, I have already used
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rtsp implementations</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I wonder Yves how would
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you rate your knowledge of rtsp?</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> i think for temporal
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fragment over rtsp, there is no problem<br />
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... we might have problems with other dimensions<br />
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... as Yves said, the problem of cutting the media depending on
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the codec is the same<br />
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... we just have the protocol to fix</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> I have also a number of
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concerns about smpte time codes for rtsp</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> raphael, I would
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qualify it as 'very rusty'</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> rtsp does not have the
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content mapping<br />
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... should we define it as well for rtsp ?<br />
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... I think there are things that MUST been discussed
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before<br />
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... and I don't think it is feasible in one week</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> assuming we do not know
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all the details, does not make sense to at least include what
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we have now in the spec?<br />
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... actually, the best way to have feedback on what we have is
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to include it in the document<br />
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... afterwards, we might take out this part if we have not
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enough technical knowledge<br />
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... I see this section as mature as others</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I think I disagree with
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this latest statement</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> I am strongly against
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putting a whole new section that didn't get _any_ review and
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raises lots of question in a LC document</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> in a regular WD yes,
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but not on a LC</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> what comes after
|
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LC?</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> Example of
|
|
problem witrh rtsp: interaction with section 10.0 REDIRECT</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think we will have
|
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a second LC anyway</p>
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<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I think we should not do
|
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it, not include rtsp into this doc<br />
|
|
... we need much serious thoughts</p>
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|
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<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> <a href=
|
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"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2326#page-39">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2326#page-39</a></p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> ok, I won't stand in
|
|
the way</p>
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> we can have multiple
|
|
LC for sure</p>
|
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> even CR->LC
|
|
phases</p>
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|
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<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> note that I completely
|
|
agree to have a new WD for RTSP, that we can fasttrack if the
|
|
doc is in good shape</p>
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|
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<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I suggest to add a link
|
|
towards a wiki page to get feedback</p>
|
|
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|
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p>
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|
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|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> isnt' that like
|
|
admitting we aren't finished with the doc for LC?</p>
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|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> and a generic sentence
|
|
stating the importance of the genericity of the URI syntax</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> ok, fair enough</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> +1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I retract my
|
|
objection</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> +1</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> 0</p>
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|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> 0</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +1</p><a name=
|
|
"action01" id="action01"></a>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
|
|
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to address RTSP handling,
|
|
pointing to the wiki page for the processing, making sure the
|
|
syntax is stated to be generic [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-179
|
|
- Address RTSP handling, pointing to the wiki page for the
|
|
processing, making sure the syntax is stated to be generic [on
|
|
Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-06-30].</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>Section 7.4 should it be removed?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>ALL:</cite> yes</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> ok, I will remove it</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-178</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-178 Review
|
|
the complete document, remove unnecessary editorial notes
|
|
before publication closed</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> requirements have
|
|
been turned into normal text</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> done :)</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> but the requirements
|
|
document is referenced at the start of the document</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> multiple tracks, is it
|
|
all clear now?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> no, sometimes we say one,
|
|
and sometimes multiple ones<br />
|
|
... it must be consistent<br />
|
|
... my question is: do we translate this into one header in the
|
|
request?<br />
|
|
... the question is do we want to have multiple occurrences of
|
|
"track" in the URI and a single one in the header?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> do we need to escape
|
|
semi-colon?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> question is: do we
|
|
agree that there are several "track" parameters in the URI, but
|
|
only a single on in the HTTP header with the different tracks
|
|
separated by semicolon</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> mutiple tracks mean many
|
|
many many packets<br />
|
|
... we cannot handle this in a multi-part message response</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> the response might be a
|
|
redirect<br />
|
|
... the problem is for the request</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> the plan is to use the
|
|
comma in the request as a separator</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> people are aware that the
|
|
fact we are using %escaping UTF-8 strings in the headers?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I can make these
|
|
changes, yes</p>
|
|
|
|
<h3 id="item04">4. ISSUE-17</h3>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> we are waiting for i18n
|
|
answer</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> we need to take a decision
|
|
when they reply</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> it will be a LC issue<br />
|
|
... no problem</p>
|
|
|
|
<h3 id="item05">5. AOB</h3>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Does WebM fit in our
|
|
table?</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> thanks,
|
|
bye!</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
|
|
<strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to add the WebM codec into our
|
|
fitting table [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-180
|
|
- Add the WebM codec into our fitting table [on Davy Van
|
|
Deursen - due 2010-06-30].</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'><cite>Summary:</cite> document edited once
|
|
more today, and then LCWD issue, publication hopefully
|
|
tomorrow</p>
|
|
|
|
<p class='phone'>[meeting adjourned]</p>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
|
|
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
|
|
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to add the
|
|
WebM codec into our fitting table [recorded in <a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
|
|
|
|
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to address
|
|
RTSP handling, pointing to the wiki page for the processing,
|
|
making sure the syntax is stated to be generic [recorded in
|
|
<a href=
|
|
"http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
|
|
|
|
<br />
|
|
[End of minutes]<br />
|
|
<hr />
|
|
|
|
<address>
|
|
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
|
|
scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
|
|
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
|
|
$Date: 2010/06/23 10:14:07 $
|
|
</address>
|
|
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