Another abandoned server code base... this is kind of an ancestor of taskrambler.
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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>MMSEM Athens F2F Meeting, December 8-9 2006</h1>
<h2>8 Dec 2006</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-mmsem/2006Dec/0014.html'>
Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-irc">IRC
log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Giorgos_Stamou, Susanne_Boll, Sofia, Stamatia,
Chrisa_Tsinsaraki, Paola, Oscar, Eric, Tobias, Michael,
Thierry, Tomas, Ioannis, Raphael, Jeff, Vassilis</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Jeff, Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>Raphael</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1. Music Recommendation Use
Case</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">2. News Use Case (Thierry
Declerk)</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">3. MPEG-7 Use Case
(Stamatia)</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">4. Photo Use Case</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">5. Multimedia Authoring Use
Case</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">6. Semantic Media Retrieval Use
Case</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>
<p class='phone'>Good afternoon everybody</p>
<p class='phone'>Jeff open the meeting</p>
<p class='phone'>We have problems to connect to Zakim ...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; Scribe: Raphael</p>
<p class='phone'>Jeff talk about the possibilities in the
future, and mention the opportunity of having a WG</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> smooth transition between
an XG to a WG<br />
... will be a topic of discussion tomorrow<br />
... the previous XG (content labeling) is trying to become a
WG</p>
<p class='phone'>I'm trying to scribe</p>
<h3 id="item01">1. Music Recommendation Use Case</h3>
<p class='phone'>Oscar Celma is</p>
<p class='phone'>an official new invited expert</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Introduction:</cite> personal music
collections have grown</p>
<p class='phone'>Music information Place: Audio (music
recording), Text (lyrics), Video (video clips, CD covers)</p>
<p class='phone'>Song metadata includes editorial, acoustic and
cultural information</p>
<p class='phone'>Users are represented by their profiles
including demographic, geographic and psychographic
information</p>
<p class='phone'>Use case</p>
<p class='phone'>Metadata initiatives for describing Audio
Content</p>
<p class='phone'>ID3 v2, OGG, APE v2, MusicBrainz 2.1 (RDF data
not yet supported)</p>
<p class='phone'>see vocabularies page</p>
<p class='phone'>ID3, OGG and APE are tag based (free attribute
value pairs)</p>
<p class='phone'>All these approaches focus on editorial
information</p>
<p class='phone'>Audio Ontologies (in OWL)</p>
<p class='phone'>Kanzaki, Music Production, Music
Recommendation</p>
<p class='phone'>See vocabularies</p>
<p class='phone'>OGG Vorbis example</p>
<p class='phone'>Interoperability problems and solutions:</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> Two general approaches:
1/ integration at RDF level (song, artist instances) ; 2/
ontology mapping ?<br />
... but there is no really ontologies</p>
<p class='phone'>Concrete example, see code in the wiki</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Idea:</cite> take the commonalities
between all the proposed tags by these schema (ID3, OGG,
etc.)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Vassilis:</cite> for which reasons the
ontology has been made ?</p>
<p class='phone'>ID3 tags are inside the audio file</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jeff:</cite> is there some conflicting
name between the various schemas ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Advantages:</cite> possible scenarios
?</p>
<p class='phone'>Create personalized playlists ... exploit song
metadata (RDF), plus user profile</p>
<p class='phone'>Upcoming gigs (user FOAF profile, geonames,
RDF data about the venues and events</p>
<p class='phone'>Simplify navigation in music collections
through personalized views</p>
<p class='phone'>integrate RDF music data into /facet</p>
<p class='phone'>EM is Erik Mannens</p>
<p class='phone'>Semi-automatic annotation of music</p>
<p class='phone'>(link with the tagging use case)</p>
<p class='phone'>Semantic podcast</p>
<p class='phone'>Mention a wikilyrics that could have a
webservice for getting the lyricsof a song</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Paola:</cite> relation between a
consumer and buisness; why not B2B ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Oscar:</cite> it is possible</p>
<p class='phone'>Future Plans:</p>
<p class='phone'>search for commonalities between the various
schema, build under the Music Recommendation ontology</p>
<p class='phone'>Do a ID3 to RDF translation</p><a name=
"action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Oscar and Jacco to provide a first
implementation by Christmas [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p><a name="action02"
id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Paola to provide a possible B2B
scenario [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item02">2. News Use Case (Thierry Declerk)</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; ScribeNick:
mhausenblas</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> General introduction,
NewsML, XBRL. UC will focus on financial domain.</p>
<p class='phone'>Thierry explains the 'Metadata Labels</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> TITLE tag contains a list
(even sentence) of keywords<br />
... not sure if keywords stem from a controlled vocabulary</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Translating XBRL
into Description Logic</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Information about
companie, profit and loss, etc.</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; ScribeNick:
mhausenblas</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Possible
application: expose NewsML information in RDF</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Combine (lightweight)
NewsML with XBRL descriptions</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; link them with RDF
version of XBRL and DownJonesML</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; B2B scenario</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Challenge: merging
all the data</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jeff:</cite> Concrete Examples?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Hopefully 01/2007 real
world data should be available<br />
... Chris HW is in touch with DowJones<br />
... Any contribution is welcome. Michael will try to get some
real world examples from NM2</p><a name="action03" id=
"action03"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael, Therry, and Chris to sync UC
Wiki description with their new focus (financial domain)
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Paola:</cite> How about using Reuters
test corpus?</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Paola to supply XG with reference to
corpus and usage license till next week. [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Back after the
coffee break</p>
<h3 id="item03">3. MPEG-7 Use Case (Stamatia)</h3>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Chrisa Tsinaraki
will join this use case</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Motivation: MPEG-7
is a set of XML schemas</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... lack of
explicit and precise semantics</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... effort to
attach formal semantics to mpeg7 (ontologies)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Example 1:
semantically identically metadata can be represented in
multiple ways</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Example 2: image
representation in itself as a multimedia entity can be
performed in multiple ways as well</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Example 3: a video
segment can be a frame, a shot, a program</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Example 4: loose
meaning of decomposition: not part/whole semantics</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Approaches:</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Hunter: initially
in DAML+OIL and then RDFS and OWL</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... link to the ABC
core model</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... decomposition
is captured using subclass constructs</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; raphel: actually,
the result of the decomposition, the segment !!!</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; no formal axioms:
an image cannot be decomposed temporally</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; SMARTWeb approach:
same problem, no such axioms</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Tsinaraki:
translation of MPEG-7 MDS into OWL</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Example whith the
variations between Tsinaraki and Hunter ontologies</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Possible solutions:
1/ mappings between the various ontologies ; 2/ build a core
ontology ? ; 3/ formalize the profiles</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Scribenick:
raphael</p>
<p class='phone'>Chrisa presents the DS-MIRF framework</p>
<p class='phone'>Transformations from OWL/RDF to MPEG-7/21 in
both ways</p>
<p class='phone'>use of a reconstruction ontology: introducing
the ordering of the elements, the default values</p>
<p class='phone'>the solution of the use case could be based on
Chrisa approach</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ocelma</cite>&gt; +1 too!</p>
<p class='phone'>Sophia and Chrisa will join this use case</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>PB:</cite> nobody knows a use of some
MPEG-7 ontologies ...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> why using these two
ontologies ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Vassilis:</cite> we do not focus on
these two ontologies but rather on the mechanism for bridging
multimedia ontologies</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> what this use case is
about ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Vassilis:</cite> there is various MPEG-7
ontologies</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Oscar:</cite> propose to add a new
document focusing on MPEG-7<br />
... taking the part in the vocabularies deliverable</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> why not making a new
document ?</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ocelma</cite>&gt; that's what I meant!
:-)</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1 , volunteer
for creating it ...</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ocelma</cite>&gt; +1 to contribute it
(with Roberto Garcia, I hope!), once its created.</p>
<p class='phone'>+1 to contribute too</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yannis:</cite> establish mappings
between this multimedia ontologies and the existing
vocabularies (FOAF, DC, ...)<br />
... would be more lessons learned that can be further used
rather than an example of a use case</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> to take off MPEG-7 from
the use case list and make a new standalone document</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p>
<p class='phone'>this document will focus on MPEG-7, the
various ontologies, and their interoperability
problems</p><a name="action05" id="action05"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Vassilis, Raphael, Oscar, Michael,
Stamatia to set up a new Deliverable [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>
<p class='phone'>Thierry and Paul and Massimo at DFKI will join
this deliverable</p>
<h3 id="item04">4. Photo Use Case</h3>
<p class='phone'>Susanne Boll presents the use case</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Photos:</cite> today (pixel-based +
additional information)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>tomorrow:</cite> capture and derive
semantics annotation</p>
<p class='phone'>What we want to know about photos: who, when,
where, how long, weather, place, location, surrounding,
company, quality, what I did, moud</p>
<p class='phone'>Is tagging enough ?</p>
<p class='phone'>there is not unique reasonable description
scheme for photos (EXIF, photoRDF, IPTC)</p>
<p class='phone'>photo undergo cross-platform distribution
search</p>
<p class='phone'>need for low-level features</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yiannis:</cite> MPEG-A about photo
collections</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; <a href=
"http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/technologies/mpa-pp/index.htm">
http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/technologies/mpa-pp/index.htm</a></p>
<p class='phone'>need for context and content</p>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ocelma</cite>&gt; (similar as Music
UC)</p>
<p class='phone'>Existing standards: EXIF, IPTC, PhotoRDF,
FOAF, DC, MPEG-7</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite></p>
<p class='phone'>Interoperability problems:</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> metadata preservation and
enrichment<br />
... centralized vs decentralized storage<br />
... lacking lean but comprehensive standard</p>
<p class='phone'>What could be the solution ?</p>
<p class='phone'>Face recognition is really important, as well
as Event (using potentially contextual information)</p>
<p class='phone'>Propose to have a standard way to include in
the photo a link towards the description</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so that photo application
system can use the metadata to do ... cool stuff :-)</p>
<p class='phone'>What kind of metadata ?</p>
<p class='phone'>Focus on EXIF, a standard for visual features,
a vocabulary for the content ...</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> will you use RDF at all
?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Susanne:</cite> I'm not against, but not
big fan !<br />
... my concern is about the size of the description</p>
<p class='phone'>Erik will join this use case</p><a name=
"action06" id="action06"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Susanne to look again in the various
systems and standards and identify 3-4 standards that together
could be the solution [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item05">5. Multimedia Authoring Use Case</h3>
<p class='phone'>SMIL, SVG, Flash, SMIL BLP, SVG Tiny</p>
<p class='phone'>Example of a SMIL document</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Problem:</cite> you use metadata in the
select and assemble processes, but there is a semantics
barriers<br />
... as soon as you transform it in SMIL or in Flash ... you
loose the metadata !</p>
<p class='phone'>What is lost: structural information is hidden
in the format of the presentation, emergent semantics when
authoring</p>
<p class='phone'>What is needed: making discourse and
structural information explicit for search and access to
documents and fragments</p>
<p class='phone'>Existing standards: LOM (Learning Objects
metadata) and SMIL metadata module</p>
<p class='phone'>Multimedia documents hide almost everything
... no description for search</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> an annotation problem, as
well as an interoperability</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> is this use case a
clear open issue ?<br />
... no solutions seem exist<br />
... we all clearly see the problems<br />
... but not the solutions<br />
... susanne will continue to edit her thoughts on the
wiki</p><a name="action07" id="action07"></a>
<p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to remind Susanne about what is
this standard your group has developped ! [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item06">6. Semantic Media Retrieval Use Case</h3>
<p class='phone'>Tobias will join the previous use case
(Multimedia Authoring)</p>
<p class='phone'>Ioannis Pratikakis</p>
<p class='phone'>(From the Analysis Perspective)</p>
<p class='phone'>Deal with semantic interoperability for
automatic media interpretation / understanding</p>
<p class='phone'>linking of low-level features to high level
semantics</p>
<p class='phone'>Example 1: lack of semantics in low-level
descriptors (single media)</p>
<p class='phone'>Example 2: interchange of semantics between
media (multiple media)</p>
<p class='phone'>This use case related to interchange of
low-level descriptors for semantic interpretation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> exchanging classifiers is
more interesting that exchanging descriptors<br />
... MPEG-7 is useful for content-based retrieval<br />
... but not for any semantic access</p>
<p class='phone'>Interoperability problems</p>
<p class='phone'>A user might want to exchange class
descriptions between an imaging device, a set-top box, etc ...
the process should be exchanged</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Solution:</cite></p>
<p class='phone'>exchange classifier parameters, and class
descriptions</p>
<p class='phone'>sketch of solution: multimedia core ontology,
media descriptor ontology, classifier ontology, domain
ontology</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> sounds really close to
the algorithm use case</p>
<p class='phone'>Example contained in the use cases</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Vassilis:</cite> sounds like more a
fusion problem that an interoperability problems<br />
... will be discussed more tomorrow with the algorithm use
case<br />
... seems to have a lot of overlap</p>
<p class='phone'>That close the meeting</p>
<p class='phone'>Meeting starts tomorrow at 9:30 Greek time
!!!!</p>
<p class='phone'>See you tomorrow</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to remind
Susanne about what is this standard your group has developped !
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Oscar and Jacco
to provide a first implementation by Christmas [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Paola to provide
a possible B2B scenario [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Paola to supply
XG with reference to corpus and usage license till next week.
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael, Therry,
and Chris to sync UC Wiki description with their new focus
(financial domain) [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Susanne to look
again in the various systems and standards and identify 3-4
standards that together could be the solution [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Vassilis,
Raphael, Oscar, Michael, Stamatia to set up a new Deliverable
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />
&nbsp;<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
<address>
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> version 1.127 (<a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
$Date: 2006/12/08 16:49:11 $
</address>
<div class="diagnostics">
<hr />
<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
<pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/plous/plus/
Succeeded: s/Chirs/Chris/
Succeeded: s/was/as/
Succeeded: s/buil/build/
Succeeded: s/Deliverabe/Deliverable/
Succeeded: s/all/Paul and Massimo at/
Succeeded: s/jacky?98/.../
Found Scribe: Raphael
Inferring ScribeNick: raphael
Found ScribeNick: mhausenblas
Found ScribeNick: mhausenblas
Found ScribeNick: raphael
ScribeNicks: raphael, mhausenblas
Present: Giorgos_Stamou Susanne_Boll Sofia Stamatia Chrisa_Tsinsaraki Paola Oscar Eric Tobias Michael Thierry Tomas Ioannis Raphael Jeff Vassilis
Agenda: <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-mmsem/2006Dec/0014.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-mmsem/2006Dec/0014.html</a>
Got date from IRC log name: 8 Dec 2006
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: chris erik jacco michael oscar paola raphael stamatia susanne therry vassilis
</pre>[End of <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
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